1. If we truly had one creator speaking to prophets, it would do so consistently, not contradictory as thousands of different religions have proven.
2. Living by the means of man helping man, and realizing time on earth is not a practice run, creates an urgency of life that requires fulfilling.
3. I asked my four-year-old daughter where the stars came from. She confidently said “The moon made them.” I followed by asking “Then where did the moon come from?” She strongly asserted “Daddy, the moon is the boss. Nobody made the moon.” This is an unmistakably familiar mindset; and rightfully embarrassing for an adult to hold such similar thought.
4. Demeter, Jesus, Apollo, Horus, Zeus, Mithra, Yahweh, Tammuz, Ganesha, and Allah are only 10 of the thousands of gods recorded in history. An Atheist is not one that refuses to read religious doctrine; it is often one who reads too many.
5. In the technicalities of most religions, there is no difference between a believer that dies before having time to repent, and a nonbeliever that rejected the doctrine altogether.
6. If the Christian god created humans as sinners, how could it rightfully expect us to believe the corrupt messengers it has sent to teach us the way of life?
7. “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?” – Epicurus
8. All babies are Atheists. Religions are taught depending on the location and era in which you are raised. Being born in the U.S. in 1974 does not make you right, it most likely just makes you another Christian. That’s no better or worse than the person born in Tibet in 1955, who proudly worships the Dalai Lama.
9. It is better to find your own answers and make an educated decision, than to intentionally remain uneducated and make a fearful one.
10. Only for the sake of argument, if I were to astonishingly find myself face to face with a supreme being, I would expect to be judged on my life as a humanist, and how I treated others, (just as most Christians plan to be judged on character, not on the actual Ten Commandments). If my positive actions were ignored, and I was instead judged on using my intelligence to doubt religious doctrines created by human sinners, I would rather be eternally punished than bow to such an unfair tyrant who made things seemingly impossible for humans to succeed at this horrific game.
After more than a year of responding to comments on this and continuing my debates and investigations into religion, and my own psychology, I realized there was an 11th, and most important reason for my atheism...
11. I simply refuse to be a hypocritical, disingenuous Christian. I could go through the motions, attend the churches, shake the hands, follow the rituals of whichever religion or denomination of Christianity I liked the best, sing the songs, and help with the luncheons. That still wouldn't make me a believer. It would make me a pretender. I am honest with myself and those around me that these things don't make sense to me. That doesn't make me a bad person. It makes me an atheist.
785 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 601 – 785 of 785"Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."
Revelation 22:11
"Let he who believes in delusional superstitions, continue to believe in delusional superstitions and suffer the ridicule of his peers"
Do you guys chuckle after reading the extremly ignorant quotes? Cause I know for sure I have a few times on this site.
-Kyle
Hi Kyle. Ya, it's too funny that, no matter how many times we tell people that their fairy tales hold no meaning with us, they still insist on using quotes from them, as if they have any value or prove anything. Too crazy!
I think my favorite that I've seen so far is "Go read a Bible" and things along that stuff it just makes me laugh.
I've been athiest for a while and I just recently started to actually read the Bible and realized just how much junk that makes no sense is in it. Just in Genesis I see just how complete nonsense Christianity is. I dont know if im actually right but in Genesis 1:6-9 does it say that the water was split into two and heaven sits on water. (Basically saying thats why the sky is blue) Cause if that is what it says this whole book is a joke.
-Kyle
Xians claim that describes separating water from clouds (and actually claim that is "scientific description" in the bible, LMAO). But we know that is BS because we've been above the clouds (jets fly above the clouds all the time) and there is no "heaven" there (as described by the bible).
Yes, there is almost an unlimited amount of complete nonsense in the bible. That is why it can't be used as a serious reference. There is way to much that is either obviously untrue and also complete gibberish.
David,
How would you feel to know you are the first atheist I have read that isn't extremely smug and arrogant about your views, or at least you don't come across that way.
I don't know what I believe. The only thing I do believe is that, more likely than not, I will never have the knowledge or emotional or mental capacity to make a firm decision on what I believe.
I would like to believe a GCB exist. I would like to believe that everything (actions, objects, etc.) all have a reason and purpose behind it. It would make me feel so much better about my life. But I don't/can't.
"I'm not as smart as I would like to be, but I am greatly trying to improve it."
Thank you for your time.
Zac
20
Philosophy/Psychology major
Hey Zac - I've heard a lot of religious people talk about how "smug" and/or "arrogant" Atheists come off as, and although I have come across a few, I just don't see it as a normal thing. I really would like to hear your view point as to why you think most of us do come across this way.
I my experience, all we are asking for is some evidence. Anything will do. We just simply don't accept wishful thinking or anecdotal delusions as "evidence." I certainly accept that we get frustrated, though. When someone tells you that you're an idiot for not being suckered into a superstition, I think we have the right to be annoyed. And when xians come back with the same tired old nonsensical arguments, is to REALLY our fault that we refuse to accept them, or re-explain for the 100th time WHY their arguments are complete nonsense?
I just don't think it's "smug" to refuse to respect someone who is supposed to be a thinking adult, who actually thinks that THEY are superior because they willfully throw reason out the window and then expect other people to accept their delusion.
Here's a question, since you are psychology major: How do children learn from their peers? Do you expect their peers to patiently explain why they are mistaken when they talk about the tooth fairy as if it were a real creature that breaks into their house? Do you really think that children would learn that way? Or do children stop being foolish because their peers ridicule and make fun of them when they come up with a stupid determination based on fantastical assumptions?
The only time that people learn from patient explanation is when they are WILLING to learn. Xians are not willing to learn.
I was talking to a fiend and his son the other day (they are both not only xians, but young-earthers) and the son (in his late 20s) was actually arguing against radiometric dating because "how could they know how much material was there to begin with?" He wasn't asking the question to find out how it really works, he was using his ignorance of the process as an argument against its validity. If someone like this is actually talking to someone he respects, he *might* accept some of the science, but talking to people on the web, there is no way someone like this will accept a clear, intelligent description of the process.
One problem is that it's really hard to explain it in enough detail to get them to understand it, even if they really wanted to. The people who thoroughly understand these processes are professional scientists, not just lay-people. It takes years of study to clearly understand these things, but xians would rather argue out of ignorance than spend time learning why (or even IF) the process is invalid. And it is REALLY hard to show any respect for someone who argues out of pure, raw, self-described ignorance. But somehow that makes the arrogance come from our side of the argument? Really?
Dimondwoof,
I am sorry you took offense to my comment (if you did). I didn't mean it in that sense at all.
I live in the bible belt. (There are more churches in my town than gas stations, convenience stores, and car washes combined. Actually take those five things and add about 6,000 house holds and you have my town.) That being said there aren't enough atheist to really make a solid comment, and I apologize that I made that generalization based on what I have seen in my life, and read in any comment string.
In my life I have met very few atheist, like I said bible belt. And the ones I have met just come across this way. They attack their beliefs, sometimes in an extremely matter-of-fact tone. Why? I believe that this is just a default that most atheist develop from years of the abuse they get for being atheist. So after the so much condescending and abuse, an atheist can barely hold in the anger he/she develops from it. Now is it right, no. I think as atheist we need to do our best to forget that and instead of attack religion as we (maybe I should say they, as I am agnostic) be tolerant of it. When an atheist gets attacked, they should (ironically) "turn the other cheek".
Now is it right? No, what atheist get for their belief, or lack there of, is not right. But what most atheist resort to after it, which is what atheist are often stereotyped as, isn't either.
Once again, I am sorry if you took offense, I really didn't mean it that way.
Zac
20
I just wanted to set the record straight. What surprises me is that it appears that you think that Atheists are as smug and arrogant, if not more so, than xians. Maybe being in the bible belt you don't see it, since people don't seem to project those emotions within a group that agrees with them, and of course you wouldn't if you weren't looking in the first place, but to me, a person who insists that s/he is right regardless of all the evidence against them is the one who is arrogant. Saying that you know the unknowable and that other people are not only wrong but incredibly stupid if they don't also profess to believe something that can't possibly be proven and have been disprove time and again, is just ridiculous.
I think you are confusing arrogance and smugness with frustration and amazement that someone can be so gullible. There are literally hundreds of inconsistencies, contradictions, logical fallacies and flat out lies in the bible. It is absolutely impossible for a being as described by xians to have authored the xian bible. Not only that, it is absolutely impossible for the xian god to exist with the attributes that xians apply to it. There is so much evidence to show that the xian belief system is nothing but a huge con in order to control people, it baffles the mind to think anyone would fall for it, let alone defend it.
Yes, we are human. Yes, we get frustrated. Yes, sometimes we respond to personal attacks in kind. But we very seldom START the attack and there is a LOT of Atheists out there that advocates staying to the subject of exposing the xian faith for what it is.
Most of us understand that we can't play the "emotions" game. That is the game that xians play (and actually, what you are playing with yourself) and if we participate, we will lose. BTW, I don't mean to point out you play that game with yourself as a derogatory thing. You point it out yourself; you *want* there to be something because it would make you “feel” better. It is completely understandable that people want to feel like they know the unknown, although it is no way to find out the truth anything, let alone nature itself.
I’m just curious why you think Atheists should, by nature, be far superior to theists. Based on your comment, it appears that you are disappointed with the Atheists that you have come across because they act too much like the religious. Am I missing something?
Zac,
First, let me thank you for coming here, and for your kind words in the beginning. I make it a point to keep this site free from arrogance on either side. I really want to make progress here.
You and Dimondwoof are both right. He is right by saying that most atheists are not arrogant, but you are right by noticing that most of the loud ones are. That's our biggest problem.
Many of the atheists that come here for example, get very irritated by some of the stubborn attacks by believers and respond with anger. I typically try to redirect them, because nothing will be solved that way.
We must stay respectful even when we are disrespected. Otherwise, we just end up fighting like children, and it looks as though each has a 'belief.' That's not the case. One side wants the world to believe their way, and the other side wants everyone to freely believe or disbelieve anything without being ostracized.
Still, our civil rights battles won't be won with negative conversations, or by name-calling. In fact, those things are detrimental to our cause. Unfortunately, as you've seen, many of the vocal atheists are quite arrogant and demeaning.
I just resigned as the Editor of the American Atheist Magazine for similar reasons. The new president agrees with slander, and I don't.
Our civil rights battles will be won by having more people listen to us, and be comfortable with joining us in the fight for equality. Throwing things does not make us desirable.
We will not get there by slashing the other sides, or talking down to them. That type of behavior only plays into the negative connotations the word 'atheist' already comes with.
Dimondwoof,
We should be more careful with our words because we are by far, a minority in this country. In fact, we are the least-trusted minority.
So how do we overcome this? By insulting the majority? By laughing at them and telling them their beliefs are stupid? We will continue to be ignored if we do.
Instead, we should take the high road, ignore their insults, and extend an oath of freedom to them--letting them know that we support their rights to believe in whatever they choose; but we will not accept the making of laws using those beliefs as a foundation. We will not accept the forcing of our children to pray, or the unlawful insertion of gods into our historical records and songs.
We do have a fight on our hands, but our mild temperament and restraint can make us leaders in this movement, instead of minorities.
One thing I would add, even though it's been said over and over again, is that it is VERY seldom that we ever "de-convert" the religious person that we are debating. We are showing the "audience" that our argument has more substance, while the other person's arguments are nothing but fantasy. That's the primary reason we need to keep our tone civil and our arguments accurate.
I freely admit that I have suffered, from time to time, with allowing my frustration to slip it's leash. The more willful ignorance I see from people, the more frustration I feel. Again, I am only human. And I would like to thank you, David, for setting me back on the path of reason. :) It's always good for us to watch each other's backs.
Ironically, I happened to just come across this web page:
http://travors.com/post/6221120472/a-christian-guy-called-me-arrogant
"A Christian guy called me arrogant.
He called me arrogant because I’m an outspoken atheist who doesn’t believe in Christianity.
He didn’t say I’m arrogant because I don’t believe in Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Diasporic, Sikhism, Juche, Spiritism, Judaism, Baha’i, Jainism, Shinto, Cao Dai, Zoroastrianism, Tenrikyo, Neo-Paganism, Unitarian-Universalism, Rastafarianism, or Scientology.
He said I’m arrogant because I don’t believe in the religion *he* has chosen. Who’s the arrogant one here?"
Dimondwoof,
Once again I am sorry for the way it sounds. After this I am just going to drop it because I really can't think of any other way to word it right now.
I don't think that theist and atheist are any better than each other. And I know I am focusing more on the atheist, but just because I mean that in comparison to David's original post. Not as compared to theist, trust me I know theist often get worse. I meant that very seldom to atheist come across the way David does in his original post, because the only atheist whom get attention are the ones who have become the stereotypical "arrogant/smug" atheist. I never meant to sound like that is what I called them. And once again I apologize for it sounding like that.
And like David said "we are the minority" especially down here. I don't like to use it as an "excuse" but it is true being an atheist in Arkansas or Alabama is a lot different that being an atheist in New York or California. We are not as vocal because there is little to no support for us.
Once again Dimondwoof, I am sorry for the way my comments sounded and I am done with it. I am sorry if I still haven't conveyed my message. I obviously need to work on conveying messages through written medium, and thank you for trying to help me clarify.
David,
Thank you for your kind words. This is usually where I make a joke about falling upon this site by "chance" ( I quite literally did, StumbleUpon it), but I think I'll leave it as is.
Thank you for being understanding and I hope one day everyone can be civil and walk away with out contempt. I hope all goes well for you from now on.
Thank both of you,
Zac
@Zac - Please don't take what I said here as a chastization. I just wanted to be sure we're clear.
Also, my original question still stands. I'd like to hear your point of view as to why you made the statement. I'm especially curious since you live in the deep south. I live in the Northwest (Portland, OR area) and, although there are pockets of religiosity (I think the town of St Johns has as many churches per capita as you do down there LOL) it is pretty moderate up here.
Please be assured that we would love to have you in the conversation (at least I hope I'm speaking for everyone else). It's great to talk to a person with an alternative view point. You seem like a pretty open-minded person and willing to at least consider, if not respect other worldly viewpoints. If you don't feel like you can either contribute or receive anything from further conversations, then I'm sorry to see you go and hope you do well, but I hope you'd be willing to stay and chat. I, for one, would be willing to answer any questions you have about the Atheist view point that I have of the world (or really anything else you'd like to chat about). Please don't feel like you aren't welcome here! :)
Dimondwoof,
Lol thank you, I think we just had a misinterpretation of what each other was saying and I apologize for that. And yes, I am extremely tolerant of everyone belief.
What made me word it like that earlier is down here how atheist are always stereotyped (like being smug and better than you, which I still believe is just a defense mechanism, and wanting to don't look to deep into my wording, but "kill" god in the public sense (take God out of the pledge, and take In God we trust off money)). It is just how atheist are perceived, even growing up that is how I was introduced to the idea of atheism.
Now I was raised in Southern Pentecostal church, in my opinion of the more extreme of the denominations. So Christianity is what I am more knowledgeable about. And most understanding of (as far as beliefs.)
On of the main issues down here is the belief that like I said before removing god from public systems. (Money, Pledge, etc.) To me I don't really care. I've always believed that the whole debate can easily be solved by not saying "god" in the pledge, or in case of other faiths replacing "god" with their deity of choice. I would really like to know your thoughts on this.
I hope that was clear. I am really trying to work on conveying messages through written media. Thank you for your patience.
Zac
@Zac - Gotcha. And that relates directly to the point I was trying to make. Why is wanting freedom of religion smug and/or arrogant? Let's look at the definition of those two words:
Smug - "Having or showing an excessive pride in oneself or one's achievements."
Arrogant - "Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance."
How do those definitions play into people wanting their views recognized? Do you see what I mean, here? I know that xians constantly say that Atheists are smug and arrogant (I've heard it in almost every debate), but I just don't see it. Wouldn't that apply more to the people who berate others for not believing something that is not only not proven, but has so much evidence against it, just because they do? Wouldn't that apply to people who gather en-mass on Sundays to exhibit pride in their own self-delusion? Wouldn't "having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance" apply more to people who off-handedly reject evolution, not because it is an invalid scientific principle, but simply because it means that man is "just an animal" or that it would imply that we are somehow "not special"? Wouldn't that apply to people who want to strip civil rights away from people just so they can feel "more special" in their own civil union?
I think the thing that I'm trying to make sure I get across is that, as a psychology student, you should be aware of the definitions of terms before you use them to describe a group of people. Especially something like this where the definitions are based on efforts made by a group of people who are simply striving for the same respect of beliefs (or lack thereof) as everyone else. To have "in god we trust" on our money is meant to display that we are all xians, forcing that viewpoint on everyone that uses our money, which is by far not true. However, to NOT display that on our money does not mean that some of us AREN'T xian. It is simply a lack of forced viewpoint. It is the same with the pledge: forcing people to say "under god" in order to be patriotic would be like forcing xians to say "under allah" if that were the predominant religion here. However, removing that does not diminish their religiosity, it simply stops them forcing it on the rest of us.
There are very good reasons why our founding fathers structured our government with the concept of separation of church and state. Many of them were xians, while many others at least believed in a creator. Despite being religious themselves, they understood the dire need to keep religion out of our government. They understood that nothing good can come of, and never has come from, a theocracy. That doesn't make them smug or arrogant. That simply makes them visionaries.
I heard a pretty good quote the other day. I started questioning religion as early as grade 8 and have come to pretty much the same conclusions as you, David. Thank you. I thought you might enjoy this:
"The supreme arrogance of religious thinking: that a carbon-based bag made of mostly water on a speck of iron-silicate dust surrounded by a boring dwarf star in a minor galaxy in an underpopulated local group of galaxies in an unfashionable suburb of a supercluster would look up at the sky and declare: "It was all made so that I could exist!".
-Peter Walker
-Lauren
That's always one question I ask xians who think this was all made for us: Why would god create hundreds of billions of universes, each with hundreds of billions of galaxies, each with hundreds of billions of stars, with trillions of planets, just so he can populate a single planet? That is a LOT of work to go through, just so we can have something interesting to look at (most of which can't be seen with the naked eye) when we look up at night.
I do not follow any particular religion and I believe that all religions are man made and not to be believed in. But in your reasoning you have not provided any proof for why you believe GOD doesn't exist. You have given reasons for why the definitions provided by various religions don't make sense and how living your life according to religious doctrine can be dangerous or is to be avoided but no proof as to the actual non-existence of GOD. GOD (if it exists) has no moral objective and does not interfere with life on earth and didn't create modern species in their current form that seems obvious to me and a lot of people on this forum, but how can one criticize religion for not providing evidence when evidence for Atheism is also lacking. I think to logical conclusion is there will be no conclusion. What started everything we know (the universe) appears to be unknowable.
@Anon - It is not up to us to provide "proof of non-existence." Just like I don't need to provide proof that Santa and the Easter Bunny doesn't exist. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Atheism doesn't make extraordinary claims.
However, the very fact that there isn't a single shred of evidence to support the existence of god IS evidence that there is no god.
Also, if you look back at my posts, you will see that I DO INDEED provide logical proof that the bible is complete fallacy. Because the xian religion is based solely on the bible, that would mean that the entire xian faith is fallacious. Since the entire faith is delusion, then the god that it is based on is likely not to exist. It is nothing but a house of cards.
As I've said before and I will say again, it is delusional superstition to believe in something that not only has no evidence to support it, but mountains of evidence against it.
In other words, you are completely wrong. Yes, we DO provide proof to support our beliefs.
We (most Atheists that I am aware of) don't criticize people for their belief in a delusion. I don't care what people believe. Our biggest point is that we require them to not shove their religion down our collective throat. THAT is the reason to speak out. I feel it is COMPLETELY my right to criticize people for forcing their self-imposed stupidity onto the rest of us.
:O I'm back!
Lauren
That's a good one. My favourite is still, "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings."
Dimondwoof
It's good to see you're still here. I don't know if I'll be sticking around, but when I was here, it was a pleasure working with you. Keep up the good fight.
Alex
Hey Alex: Glad to see that you still check in from time to time. Hope school is going well for you!
Someone once said, "Man can't even create a flea, but he can create gods by the hundreds." How true. Man is not content knowing that he is extremely fortunate to exist for a short time and then he's gone forever. That short gap in time he experiences should be lived to the utmost to create his small niche of happiness.
Any negative comment is trolling or dumb. Simple.
@Anon - Hmm. I'd have to disagree. Debate is all about constructive comments, whether they are negative or positive. For example, number 10. That particular opinion doesn't give weight to either side of the argument of whether there is a god or not. It gives weight to why a person shouldn't worship the xian god, if it actually existed, but doesn't give credence to the position that it doesn't exist.
However, people who comments with obviously ridiculous and made-up arguments (like, for example, most of Matt's comments), now THAT could certainly be considered "trolling or dumb". I tend to only respect people whose arguments are based in the real world and not some fantasy, especially when the person who is caught up in the fantasy expect others to buy into it just because they are.
ok lets get a couple of things straight... Islam was created AFTER Christianity started, Muhamid said that he tooks some of their stories from Chrstianity. If you ACTUALLY read the Qua'ran you would see that they say the Christians were at one point just like Islam, but due to corubtion they decided to go a different route... When Christianity started its main purpose was to change the Jewish religion, NOT to create a new one. I'm a religion major and have ACTUALLY been reading this stuff. If you are going to argue something PLEASE actually check it with a reliable source not another person on the internet. Feel free to look up what I said above. You try to make Christians seem like idiots, with our ideals, but if you actually read REAL information you would read completly different stuff. For example: Most Scientist believe they have proven evolution wrong. Although the rest of the world only reads what they want to read, which are the few(but loud) scientist that are still trying to find proof.
This looks like a great debate, but people need to check their facts, or check others'
-Lindsey
Lindsey,
All in one post, you have told people to check their facts before they state them, and then you've turned around and stated a false fact yourself.
Your comment about 'most scientists' is completely wrong. 97% of the members of the National Associations of Sciences are either atheist or agnostic. There are museums all over the world showing the fossil record and the facts of evolution.
You clearly have not read Dawkin's book 'The Greatest Show on Earth.' Please do. Please visit any serious museum. You have stepped way outside the line of a logical argument on this one.
To your point on Islam, I've stated that over and over. Islam copied a large portion of Christianity - this has been proven as well. I'm not sure who you were talking to. If you want to directly respond to people, please include their name in your post.
Lindsey,
The ONLY "scientists" that believe they have proved evolution "false" are xian. That is because most xians completely ignore any evidence that conflicts with their delusional beliefs.
You are completely mistaken in that evolution is "up for debate". Evolution is a scientific fact. The "Scientific Theory of Evolution" only attempts to EXPLAIN the FACTS of evolution. There is not a single respectable scientist that doesn't have an ulterior motive (meaning religion) that doesn't not accept evolution as a fact.
As for the religious facts that you claim, I have absolutely no doubt you are correct. I'll have to read back through the posts, but I don't think anyone here has ever claimed anything contrary. I'm pretty sure that no one here that is unassociated with any of the abrahamic religions thinks that any of them is any more valid than any other and they have all stolen dogma from previous religions, so why wouldn't they steal dogma from each other? Regardless of their beginnings, they are all based of myths, superstitions and fantasies. The main purpose of most religions (including all the abrahamic ones) is to control the superstitious masses.
1. How do you know what a god would do? This is just your opinion. If an all powerful god exists, we do not get to choose its characteristics.
2. Your comment that implies Christianity is a “practice run” shows your lack of understanding of Christian belief.
3. Can something be created from nothing? Isn’t it logical that something has to have always existed for anything to be here?
4. Because people have worshiped thousands of gods does not say anything about them being true or not.
5. In Christianity this is true, without gods work of repentance there is no forgiveness.
6. Our faith is a supernatural miracle of god, without him you won’t believe.
7. If you don’t believe in god how can you even comment on good and evil? You want to attribute your sense of what the characteristics of god are, see number 1.
8. I agree most Christians in the US are false converts, and not saved. They don’t really believe, they go along because they are taught, or want to fit in, but have never repented or asked for forgiveness. But this has no bearing on whether a religion is true or not.
9. What of people that find their own answers in human sacrifice, are they better off? I don’t think you understand Christianity correctly. You can’t be saved because you fear hell but only when you understand you deserve hell.
10. I really don’t think you understand Christian doctrine. Christianity does not teach we are judged on our character after we die. If someone is banking on that they will end up in hell. One sin sends us to hell. And again you think you know what the characteristics of god should be and if they are not you foolishly would want to be sent to hell instead of admitting you were wrong.
1. I know what 'your' god would do based on the bible which I have read twice and studied for 13 years. 1 Cor 14:33 states "God is not the author of confusion, but of peace." Being contradictory would cause confusion.
2. Me calling it a "practice run" is my interpretation. Many Christians say "only God can judge me." And "all questions will be answered in the end." That mindset does not suggest this life is being taken seriously.
3. If something can't come from nothing, where did your god come from? He can't just always exist - he had to have been created, just like our world, right? This is a philosophical argument, not a scientific one. The beginning of time is something that both religion and science has failed to ascertain as of today. Science is at least making progress. Religion has given up.
4. I agree with you. But in examining the evidence, we see that not a single one has been proven to be true in the absolute sense. This is the way science works. Until it's proven, it's false.
5. We agree.
6. But I have to actually believe, not just say I do. I can't make myself believe if it doesn't logically make sense to me. I could only pretend.
7. Its called consequential ethicist. It's found in every society on the planet, including the 2 billion people that aren't Christians. Your belief system does not have the monopoly on good deeds. This is the arrogance of Christianity that irks me.
8. We agree. It's merely an observation.
9. My point here is that people should do their own research, not just take the words of others.
10. I don't want to be sent to hell. I know there is no such place, so it doesn't scare me. The point I'm making is what you said - we aren't judged on character, but belief, which we can't control. We can only say we believe. It's pretty sadistic to be eternally punished because something doesn't make sense to you.
And trust me, I wouldn't have published a book, maintained this website for 3 years, been the editor of the American Atheist magazine, and been invited to multiple radio shows to debate various preachers, had I not learned about Christianity first. So your comments that I am foolish and ignorant are not taken seriously. The readers of this site, both believers and non-believers alike know very well that I am educated on Christianity. I wouldn't refute it otherwise.
@Robb -
1. Correct, but the problem is that those characteristics cannot be contradictory. The attributes of the xian god are contradictory; therefore that god can not exist in reality.
2. As usual, you, as a xian, take offense where none is offered. The second comment refers to our life here, not any particular superstitious belief system.
3. Your comment applies directly to your religion. If your god can magic up everything out of nothing, then, yes, things can be created from nothing. It's funny that xians claim this (after all, god was created from nothing, too), but you use it as an argument against rational thought. BTW, science does NOT claim that everything is made out of nothing. Before you make arguments like this, you should really read up on your science instead of taking talking points from other people who have no idea what they are talking about.
4. Hold that thought...
5. Okay, so in #4 you say that belief does not prove existence, but here you say belief DOES prove existence. Funny xian circular logic...
6. Wait, didn't we just cover this one?
7. Good and evil are not solely xian concepts. To think so is extremely arrogant on your part. Also, the reference to evil is based directly back to the xian belief system.
8. You are correct. However, your belief also has no barring on whether your superstition is true or not. (Again, haven't we already covered this?)
9. Then what is the point of Hell at all? Why would xianity bring up its existence in the first place? I think it is YOU that doesn't understand the delusion you follow. One of the conflicting concepts about your religion is the very concept of Hell. If yours is a just and loving god, why would it send someone into the "eternal fire"? Either snuff out their soul or send them there to teach them something, but to cause the unending torture of someone, especially simply for being fooled by your "perfect god" in the first place, is pretty "evil", wouldn't you say? I mean, if your god exists, it has put a great deal of effort into making sure that anyone who isn't delusional and actually thinks for themselves doesn't believe in it. To convince someone you don't exist and then punish them for that disbelief is a pretty crappy thing to do to someone.
10. I really don’t think you understand Christian doctrine. If one sin sends us to hell, then we are all going to hell. Xianity teaches that we are ALL sinners. We are all BORN with sin. That’s the whole point behind baptism. That’s the whole point behind “original sin”.
We do NOT claim to know what the characteristics of god should be. We are only going on what XIANS claim the characteristics of their god are. And those characteristics are contradictory.
The ninth rule of logic states:
"A contradiction can not exist in reality. Not in part, nor in whole.
To believe in a contradiction is to abdicate your belief in the existence of the world around you and the nature of the things in it, to instead embrace any random impulse that strikes your fancy - to imagine something is real simply because you wish it were. A thing is what it is, it is itself. There can be no contradictions.
Faith is a device of self-delusion, a sleight of hand done with words and emotions founded on any irrational notion that can be dreamed up. Faith is the attempt to coerce truth to surrender to whim. In simple terms, it is trying to breathe life into a lie by trying to outshine reality with the beauty of wishes. Faith is the refuge of fools, the ignorant, and the deluded, not of thinking, rational men.
In reality, contradictions cannot exist. To believe in them you must abandon the most important thing you possess: your rational mind. The wager for such a bargain is your life. In such an exchange, you always lose what you have at stake. "
By the way, why are you using the threat of Hell to try to brow beat or scare someone into your superstition, even though you claim that there is no need for such a thing? Because, deep down, you know that there is no evidence to support your claims, so the only tact you have left is trying to scare or intimidate people with fanciful tales of a scary afterlife. Not really the purview of rational, reasonable, thinking adults.
You claim "most Christians plan to be judged on character" and that may be true if they've not read the Bible or had Christianity explained properly. It's faith in Jesus as their savior that saves them from judgment and nothing else.
Thanks,
Jim
@Jim - And if that is true, it is a very sad thing indeed. You get either rewarded or punished for all of eternity based purely on a belief that, if god exists, it has done everything in its power to dissuade that belief? Basically, god is "rewarding" you for holding nonsensical, childish beliefs.
I would consider it a poor parent indeed that did everything they could to hide something from a child and convince that child that something didn't exist, and then turn around and punish the child for not believing.
The foolishness of saying that you have to believe without evidence is mind-boggling, as well as ridiculous. There are people filling the bible who supposedly had evidence presented to them all the time. However, the rest of us are to be judged without that evidence? And one cannot argue that the evidence is there because the bible is available, because the bible is so full of contradictions, inconsistencies, obscurities, logical fallacies and flat out lies, it can't possibly be taken as a valid source of any sort of knowledge. For example, where is the "Book of Jesus"? If we are to take his word on things, why are we reading stories about him that were written decades if not hundreds of years after he supposedly lived? The two primary books that talk about him obviously quote fictional stories that were verbally passed down (quite often word for word), except where they wildly differ. And it is interesting that the ONLY evidence of Jesus’ existence is in the bible. There is no other evidence at all that he ever even existed, let alone performed any miracles. However, there are stories of dozens of other “prophets” that performed exactly the same “miracles”, but are dismissed as frauds. If the bible is the "book of god", how can a perfect god create such an imperfect book? And if it is only "inspired" by god, to me, that translates to "it is a piece of fiction". Being "inspired" by something lends it no credence or evidence to the inspirer’s existence. It's a cop-out; a way to dismiss how imperfect and corrupt it is without any thought or justification. Books have been written that were “inspired” by Santa, Peter Cottontail, the Easter Bunny, and fairies, but that doesn’t give any credence to the existence of these things at all.
@Jim - Oh, and by the way, almost every xian on the planet will tell you that you will go to hell for "sinning", whether you believe in jesus or not, so, in fact, either no one has explained xianity to YOU, or YOU haven't been reading the same bible as all your "brothers" have.
Are you really saying that you can commit as many sins as you want, but as long as you acknowledge the existence of jesus, you get to go to heaven, whereas someone who spent their life helping other people, giving to the poor, and creating peace is doomed to hell? And you think that comes from a "fair and just god"?
Are you really saying that every child that is indoctrinated into a different superstitious delusional belief system from birth is doomed to hell because they weren't "fortunate" enough to grow up in your superstitious delusional belief system? Ya, that seems fair.
Hi David,
I'm 13, and im kinda in a stage were i don't know what to belivee in. There is this show called ghost adventures, and its about 3 men going around to hunted places and doing lock downs in them, and as i watch it i can't help but think about all thes ghost aren't going any were and there just stuck there. so were would we go after we die? if we had a god wouldn't we go to him? Theres also this new show that came out called dead fils were this girl claims to be able to see and hear gost, and in one of her shows show goes to this hows and she sees thes ppl walking and then get sucked into a creek, like they were getting slurped into the earth and then they would come out and walk off,but when they came out thay look rely rely bad and ugly. then latter in the show there was some research done and she found out that back in the old days some kind of tribe, i think, would put the bodys of a lost one in the water as a sign of respect i guess, but as i started think, she said earlyer in the show she said when they came out of the creek they didn't look so good. so is there a god? i have to Question it, and not just because of some shows but also tha fact that theres no proof. ppl say thats what the bible is, but COME ON! the bible has been rewrote by man sooooo many time and even if you gave me the very first bible it steel wouldn't be accurate. 9: im just soooo confused.
Hi Ashley. I'm glad to see that you are thinking about these things and questioning what you are told. One thing to keep in mind about the TV shows that you mentioned is just that: they are TV shows. There wouldn't be much of a "Ghost Hunters" show without ghosts, would there? So, in order to have a show, someone needs to make up the ghosts. If you'll notice, no ghosts *actually* appear, it's just a bunch of people scaring themselves int he dark with creepy sounds. And shows like Crossing Over with John Edwards just show how good of a con someone can run.
But regardless of whether those shows actually portray the truth or not, still doesn't mean that xianity is correct. You hit the nail on the head with that one, too.
There is no "original" bible. The bible is a collection of a bunch of stories gathered together and consolidated into a set of 2 books. But if you go back even before that, those same stories were told about other mythologies. Even the story of jesus was copied from several different "half-god half-human" beings. All the way down to the birth date being Dec 25th. Xianis will say that's just a "guess" because no one really knows when he was born, but the reason that date stuck is because it's in so many other mythologies. If you really delve into the xian mythology, you will also find that the xian god had a wife, so in the early days, he wasn't the "one and only true god".
All in all, the xian mythology has just as many inconsistencies, contradictions, and logical fallacies as every other mythology that man has ever made up. The question is, why do we need this sort of mythology? We really don't. We can be just as loving, caring, curious and forgiving with or without the belief in some made up supernatural all-father that is looking over us and judging our actions. If you keep in mind that this is the only life you will have, you will start to understand that you need to cherish it and make the most out of it.
Just live your life the best you can and, if there is some deity that will judge you and that deity is fair and just, it should judge you on how you live and not just what you believe.
Greetings, Abandon the impossible and embrace the practical. The following link will resolve your questions.
http://21stcenturyjedi.webs.com/apps/blog/show/10074946-origin-of-universe
Regards,
Dr. Damon Sprock
Greetings, The very fact that all of you want to live your lives as good people and do good to others is first principle proof that your subconscious, preexisting potential (Which originated from Spiritual DNA at the creation of the universe) is connected to God consciousness.
Do you truly believe that there is no origin of the universe, that everything appeared from nothing? What you need to realize is that you are experiencing a degree of perception of reality that requires shifting to a higher degree of perception.
An analogy would be to compare your perception of reality 10 or 15 years ago and compare that to what you know now. Your consciousness has shifted frequency, like a flashlight that goes from first position to second then third position. With each advanced position, the frequency becomes greater, allowing the observer to see clearly at farther distances.
The more religions we have, the more paths to God are established. The parameters of religions are basically the same, belief in God, even though their leaders may have particular details that differ. The good intentions are what is important. More about this, see link:
http://21stcenturyjedi.webs.com/apps/blog/show/10074946-origin-of-universe
Regards,
Dr. Damon Sprock
"Do you truly believe that there is no origin of the universe, that everything appeared from nothing?"
I have never understood where people get this idea. Who ever said that atheists believe that the universe came out of nothing?
The rest of your theories are interesting (read: amusing). However, much like all other religions, they have no basis in reality. Everything that you are talking about on your web site is no more viable and valid as any one individual religion that you claim is only a single pathway to some mystic deity.
To accept your concepts as "real", we have to apply the same critical thinking mechanism that we use to determine if anything else that we are evaluating is real. And your theories fall just as flat as xianity, hinduism, or any other ridiculous unsupported hypothesis that people imagine up.
But, as I said, it is very entertaining.
Greetings everyone! I was reading the posts and many of you do come off mean and bitter from what I've seen(atleast in my life). I am an adult and understand an act of an individual or individuals does not represent the whole community. I'm a Christian obviously, though I would admit I've played the rude part as well, (even though I admit that was bad on my part) but like Mr. Diamondwolf said "I'm only human, from the viewpoint of my faith I'm not a better man than any of you, as you know my faith says we are all sinners. I read the 10 reasons of this blog and thought to myself... this could be an awesome debate! Soooooo, with love and respect lets converse about the topic.
Hey Anon. Welcome to the conversation.
I'm sorry if atheists tend to come off as "mean and bitter", but you do have to understand that we are only trying to defend ourselves against the onslaught of religious slavery. After all, I just read another article that claims that more people in the US would actively avoid voting for an atheist than for a gay person or a muslim. If that isn't out and out "mean and bitter" prejudice on the part of the religious, I'm not sure what is. I don't believe we are any more "mean and bitter" than you would be if people were trying to shove sharia law down your throat.
However, I'm happy to converse about why I an not religious. But it seems that, since you are new to the site, I think you should start the direction of the conversation. What points would you like to debate?
Well I would like to comment on the whole voting remark you just gave. Speaking only for myself, I wouldn't mind voting for an atheist if what he stood for was good to go in my eyes. Don't take away my liberties is one of my biggest things. I don't think anyone should shove anything down someones throut. I do think most people that are of faith think that if an atheist would come into power he would go on a (do I dare??) crusade to do away with religion. As we look back on history you see athiestic regimes that did away with liberties, one being able to worship any God. So you can understand why people may (notice I use the word understand) be reluctant to accept an athiest. I would like to point out that even athiests I've spoken with usually tend to cry out the crusades as a reason not trust someone of a "religious" background to be in office. I think it's pefectly okay for someone to put their faith into a higher power (even if I don't agree with it) and if they choose to do that they shouldn't be castout as a crazy person or someone you can't trust. I also feel the same way if it was the other way around.
From my understanding in most states if not all, it's molded to an athiest. You no longer required to recite the pledge of alligience, God is taboo in school, theory of evolution is presented as the only answer on how we became to be, you are free to accept or reject any information presented to you, and that science can prove everything. I apologize in advance if I'm not up on current events so if something is happening where athiests are being "persucuted" or forced into religion then obviously something would have to be done. I don't know where this onslaught of religious slavery is happening other than the middle east where I currently live. Mr. Diamondwoof, is someone putting a machete to your neck if you don't convert?? If not, than I think you have no reason to say such remarks unless that comment was on the middle east or it's personally hapening to you. I would hope you would not lump me into the same category as a muslim since I am christian.
My last question is would you vote for a religious man who feared God?
Sifuentes
Hi Sifuentes,
The problem with the religious is that they ALWAYS think their religion is “under attack.” It is ridiculous to think that, just because someone doesn’t hold to a delusional superstition, that he or she would strive to circumvent the constitution. But I also find it amusing that the religious are more than happy to do so themselves. We are not talking about an atheistic dictatorship here. We are simply talking about a president that just happens to not hold to superstition. We are not talking about voting in a "religious leader". We are talking about voting in a secular leader who needs to make secular decisions.
Enforcing the 1st Amendment and the concept of “separation of state and church” is not an “attack on religion”. As a matter of fact, it is specifically spelled out in the law that there can be no test of religious faith in order for someone to qualify for an elected position, however there are several state that DO enforce that test, being blatantly prejudiced against the non-believer. The 1st Amendment not only guarantees the right to worship as you see fit, but it also guarantees the right to NOT worship, if that is what you want. The religious seem to forget this little caveat.
Many religious politicians are constantly striving to circumvent our liberties, but that doesn’t seem to bother the religious as long as it is THEIR religion that gets to be on top. If you look back on history, there are just as many, if not MORE regimes that did away with freedoms that were religion-based as not. Theocratic regimes were some of the most oppressive and brutal of all times, and that includes xian regimes at the top of the list. With that in mind, no, I CAN’T actually understand why the religious are so paranoid about someone removing their right to worship.
I really don’t understand what you mean by “most states being molded to an atheist.” Being required, or not, to recite the Pledge of Allegiance is a purely secular issue that has nothing to do with religion. Making “god” taboo in school actually ENFORCES religious freedom, it doesn’t stifle it. It only makes it so that the school can’t force any particular religion over another (or none, for that matter). You would be fighting just as hard to get religion out of school, if it were the Hindu religion or the muslim religion. But since it is the xian religion, you think it should be forced on everyone? As for what is taught in school, what do you expect? School is for teaching critical thinking and scientific truths. I have no problem with teaching creationism in school if it is taught along with all the other superstitious creation myths of all other religions. However, we should not be teaching a fantastical myth as any sort of scientific fact. Evolution is a scientific fact. The “scientific theory of evolution” simply explains that fact. Creationism is not, in any way shape or form, scientific. I’m also not sure what you mean by “you are free to accept or reject any information presented to you”, so I can’t address that statement. However, your statement that science can prove everything is interesting. You seem to address science like it is some sort of religious dogma. It is not. Science is a methodology of discovery and explanation. Yes, there are scientific steps to prove or disprove theories, but there is no scientific dogma that is accepted without question, such as there is (and must be) in religion.
And to answer your questions about persecution and slavery, the religious of this country strive for that every day. Atheists are attacked (mostly verbally, but also physically) all the time here in the US. Granted, not as much as in the Middle East, but it still happens. I can’t tell you how man times I have been told by the religious to just “shut up and let people believe as they wish”, which is ironic, since that sentence in itself belies the religious person of believing that him or her self.
It is religious doctrine that allowed actual real slavery in this country to begin with. It is religious doctrine that allowed the suppression of women’s rights in this country for decades. As a xian, you MUST know that the bible not only condones, but actively supports slavery. There are even instructions in the bible of how often and how severely you are allowed to beat your slaves (and women).
I could link to several articles where atheist messages are disallowed whereas blatant religious messages are accepted freely. There is even one where an atheist billboard was rejected even though it had the exact same message, word for word, as a religious billboard that the same company was already displaying. You don’t call that persecution and prejudice?
If it were not for atheistic pressure for freedom throughout the history of this country, yes, I believe that the religious WOULD be physically holding a knife to my throat if I did not attend church every week. There are many (Ann Coulter, for example) who advocate just that. We have presidents that actually go on national television and say that if you are not xian, you are not to be considered a patriot. When my Commander in Chief tells ME that I am not a patriot, even though I voluntarily joined my nation’s Marine Corp out of national pride, yes, I would say that I am being persecuted. We have people within our own military that are physically attacked for being an “out of the closet” atheist. You can absolutely bet your bottom dollar that atheists are persecuted and attacked in this country.
As for your last question: No, if I had a choice, I would not vote for a religious man of god. Now, to answer what should be the next question: Why? Because religion is a delusional superstition. There is no evidence whatsoever of any truth behind it. There are mountains of evidence that disprove it. Xianity is based solely and absolutely on the bible. Yet the bible has hundreds of contradictions, inconsistencies, logical fallacies and flat out lies. Both jesus and yhwh have conflicting attributes and make them absolutely impossible characters. Almost the entire bible (especially any “supernatural” stories as well as the jesus character) are obviously based on other, older religions, but the religious completely ignore these facts.
Allowing yourself to believe a religion is actively patterning your brain to accept things that have no basis in reality. Religious people tend to emotionally evaluate situations rather than rational evaluate them. A good example is the creationist theory (this is NOT a "scientific theory", there is a big difference). There is no actual evidence supporting this theory. There is a huge amount of data disproving it. But since creationists *really want* to believe it, it must be true. Which is why there isn't a single non-religious person that takes the theory at all seriously. And many "religious" scientists that also do not take it seriously.
I don’t have a problem at all with other people believing these fairy tales. Each to his own. If it makes you feel better to believe that you will go to a “better place” when you die, more power to you. My only issue is when the religious try to force their religion (that I know for a fact is fallacious) on me and my children. That is when I stand up and say I won’t take it.
Haha it seems you are controlling the direction of this conversation now :) No worries, but first let me go on and say Semper Fi brother! ;)
So as I said earlier, school is molded for an atheist. The country protects the athiest as you cleary stated. What is the problem? I am totally against forcing anyone into something. So I'd say we agree their. I want to make it clear. I AM NOT HERE to try to convert anyone. I can't. That's not my job. I just want to here poeple and their opinions on this blog's topic. If you want to hear mine then I'll share mine with whoever wants to and we will go from their.
As you know in the Corps we are surrounded by all types of Marines from different backgrounds. Most Marines I know don't care about what religion you are. As of matter of fact personal beliefs are not even an issue. Sure we would go around and laugh and poke fun every now and then, but then again we do that with EVERYTHING and still drink a beer. As, a Marine I'm sure you can understand that and not consider that persecution.
I've been attacked by an athiest before, but its not going to ruin my view on the whole lot of you guys.
So from what I said earlier, I would say theres no love lost between my muslim, athiest, agnostic, mormon, and buddhist Marines. Even if I don't share their beliefs. So from my perspective, I don't see it. How many foot patrols have I been on where I placed my faith in the leadership of a fellow Christian or an atheist? Seen my corpsman who was muslim, patch up a Marine. So I'd say your lack of faith in a man because of their religious background is warped. I don't mean to come off as being rude, but you must surely agree a religious man or a atheist can do good things. Nonetheless thats your choice and ofcourse you are your own man. Like I said "I'm sorry" if I don't see it in everyday america. Anyways, hmmm...I wasn't really arguing certain points you presented. I also certainly agree on some of your statements. So I will comment on the ones that I discussed earlier and then once we are done there, you can bring up the next list of things to discuss. After this post lets you and I both try to keep them a little shorter. What do you say? I say this so we won't go off topic.
Okay, is it just me? Or you really don't like people of faith? It seems like it. I'm sure I can get over it though ;) Honestly though I got nothing, but love for you Mr. diamondwoof.
Theory does not mean its fact. Would you agree?
Do you say science can prove, disprove and account for everything?
I didn't get the memo, when did science prove that God didn't exist?? What proof do you have that disproves God? Let me know so I can jump ship ;)
Gregory Koukl wrote "It is true that it's possible that religion can produce evil, and generally when we look closer at the detail it produces evil because the individual people are actually living in a rejection of the tenets of Christianity and a rejection of the God that they are supposed to be following. So it can produce it, but the historical fact is that outright rejection of God and institutionalizing of atheism actually does produce evil on incredible levels. We're talking about tens of millions of people as a result of the rejection of God."
It has been estimated that in less than the past 100 years, governments under the banner of communism have caused the death of somewhere between 40,472,000 to 259,432,000 human lives. Dr. R. J. Rummel, professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii, is the scholar who first presented the term democide (death by government). Dr. R. J. Rummel's mid estimate regarding the loss of life due to communism is that communism caused the death of approximately 110,286,000 people between 1917 and 1987. Richard Dawkins has attempted to engage in historical revisionism concerning atheist atrocities and Dawkins was shown to be in gross error.
Vox Day notes concerning atheism and mass murder:
“ Apparently it was just an amazing coincidence that every Communist of historical note publicly declared his atheism... there have been twenty-eight countries in world history that can be confirmed to have been ruled by regimes with avowed atheists at the helm … These twenty-eight historical regimes have been ruled by eighty-nine atheists, of whom more than half have engaged in democidal 162 acts of the sort committed by Stalin and Mao …
The total body count for the ninety years between 1917 and 2007 is approximately 148 million dead at the bloody hands of fifty-two atheists, three times more than all the human beings killed by war, civil war, and individual crime in the entire twentieth century combined.
The historical record of collective atheism is thus 182,716 times worse on an annual basis than Christianity’s worst and most infamous misdeed, the Spanish Inquisition. It is not only Stalin and Mao who were so murderously inclined, they were merely the worst of the whole Hell-bound lot. For every Pol Pot whose infamous name is still spoken with horror today, there was a Mengistu, a Bierut, and a Choibalsan, godless men whose names are now forgotten everywhere but in the lands they once ruled with a red hand.
Is a 58 percent chance that an atheist leader will murder a noticeable percentage of the population over which he rules sufficient evidence that atheism does, in fact, provide a systematic influence to do bad things? If that is not deemed to be conclusive, how about the fact that the average atheist crime against humanity is 18.3 million percent worse than the very worst depredation committed by Christians, even though atheists have had less than one-twentieth the number of opportunities with which to commit them. If one considers the statistically significant size of the historical atheist set and contrasts it with the fact that not one in a thousand religious leaders have committed similarly large-scale atrocities, it is impossible to conclude otherwise, even if we do not yet understand exactly why this should be the case. Once might be an accident, even twice could be coincidence, but fifty-two incidents in ninety years reeks of causation!
I would like to talk about ID later down the road though. I do embrace science. I don't think Christianity is incompatiable with science. Also, your world view assumptions on the bible holds little weight to a Christian that takes it to be divine truth. So to avoid debating in circles lets stick to history outside the bible. If you want to ask me what I think about a certain topic then go for it, but you using verses or instances in the bible to prove the bible wrong is meaningless if you don't even believe what your using to discredit it. Did I convey that right??? I am anxious to hear your response though.
Sifuentes
No, I would disagree with your statement that school is “molded for an atheist.” (and, of course, we are talking about public schools) School is for teaching secular studies. Science, math, reading, writing, etc. Public school is not a place for teaching mythology. It is not a place to have children being indoctrinated into any given religion. Creationism is a religious myth of how the world began. There is clear evidence that it is completely false. Just because we don’t allow children to be indoctrinated into a religion, does not mean it is “molded to atheism.” If we had classes that exposed religion for what it was, THEN I would agree with you, but we don’t.
I do agree with you that, no matter what religion (or lack thereof) a person holds, really has no baring in whether that person is inherently good or is trustworthy. Funny that you would say that, while at the same time assuming by default that an atheist president would declare a “war on religion.”
Hmm. I really don’t see where you got that I “really don’t like people of faith”. My brother is mormon, my best friend is a fundamentalist xian, I have friends that are muslim. You, as do most religious people, seem to be confusing my attitude toward religion with the people who actually adhere to the religion. What I specifically said is that when you allow yourself to believe nonsensical fairy tales, it patterns your brain to allow you to believe anything that you really want to believe. That is not an attack on you as a xian. It is pointing out the danger of religion.
I really don’t know what that last paragraph has to do with anything. Number of deaths caused by communist governments vs the number of deaths caused by religious regimes is a completely skewed statistic. There are all kinds of mitigating factors that you would have to take into account such as the total number of people under each type of regime, whether those deaths were of people under or outside of that regime, length of time or each type, etc, etc. Plus, we were talking about freedom and civil rights, not deaths caused by. Sorry, but Koukl’s quote really doesn’t mean anything in this context.
Oh, and by the way, I wouldn’t support a communist regime any more than I would support a theocratic regime. You’re point is well taken that one is just as bad as the other.
“Theory does not mean fact” – Okay, first, it appears that we need to define a couple of things. “Theory” (as most people use it) is defined as “abstract thought or speculation”. That is basically what religion is. It doesn’t conform to or try to explain any facts. Next we have “Scientific Theory” is “summarizes a hypothesis or group of hypotheses that have been supported with repeated testing. A theory is valid as long as there is no evidence to dispute it.” A scientific theory is used to explain a set of observable, provable facts. The “Scientific Theory of Evolution” is a tested and proven set of hypothesis that explain the scientific fact of evolution. Evolution is a scientific fact. We have observed it over and over again in our lifetimes. We have seen it in fossil records. There has never been any evidence that has ever been presented that disproves the scientific theory of evolution.
What I am saying is, yes, science can prove or disprove everything that has any sort of interaction with our reality. I’m not saying it currently DOES, I am saying that it CAN. As for disproving your god, well, it has done so just as surely as it disproves the existence of invisible pink unicorns. Here is the problem with your statement: claiming that your god exists is what is called an “extraordinary claim”. What that means is that you need “extraordinary evidence” to support such claims. So far, there has been no evidence whatsoever that yhwh exists. Or any other god for that matter. That doesn’t “disprove” your gods existence, but the problem is no one has ever “proved” that it does. Simply put, your god has no proven interaction with our reality. With that in mind, there is no rational reason to believe in it.
"Also, your world view assumptions on the bible holds little weight to a Christian that takes it to be divine truth. ... but you using verses or instances in the bible to prove the bible wrong is meaningless if you don't even believe what your using to discredit it. Did I convey that right??? I am anxious to hear your response though."
This is an interesting quote. I'm curious, what can be used to disprove the validity of the bible if one can't use the bible itself? If someone says "I weight 100 pounds" and then 5 minutes later says "I weight 50 pounds", just because I don't believe that person, why can't I use his 2 inconsistent quotes to prove that he is lying?
I believe the bible exists and I can read the words just as easily as a "believer". Why does it matter whether I believe the bible is divine or not? I can point out hundreds of inconsistencies in the bible. Are you saying that I shouldn't be allowed to do so, just because I don't believe that it is divine? Are you saying that your faith is so fragile that you should be able to say that the one and only thing that supports your belief should be beyond question? I would have to guess that you KNOW your bible is so flawed that it shouldn't be taken seriously and that is why you are trying to call it "out of bounds".
One other thing that I have to ask: Are you saying that all atheists must be as evil as Stalin or Mao? That is the worst strawman argument I have ever heard. That's like me claiming that all theists must be as evil as Hitler, George W. Bush or Pat Robertson. Seriously, do you really believe that it was purely atheism that drove those men into evil acts?
This is actually an excellent example of what I mentioned before, which is emotional evaluation of information. Giving information about how bad these communist governments have been gives absolutely no support to how valid your religion is, especially when it is obvious that such an argument can be turned right back around. Actually Hitler's regime is much more valid to this discussion. If it weren't for xianity, his reign of terror wouldn't have been possible. His government came about in very similar circumstances to what we are now facing in America. And his attitude toward Jews is very similar to many republican candidate's views towards atheists and gays that we are currently seeing, especially in this upcoming election. So, based on your assessment, we should definitely NOT be voting for religious politicians.
Thanks for helping me make my argument. :)
Since you didn't post last night, I guess I'll answer another of your questions: "Is a 58 percent chance that an atheist leader will murder a noticeable percentage of the population over which he rules sufficient evidence that atheism does, in fact, provide a systematic influence to do bad things?"
The answer is, the 58% that you quote is completely random and bogus. Basically, you are saying that, because 58% of communist leaders committed some sort of genocide, that means that there is a 58% that ANY atheist would do the same. All atheists are not communist. And all communists are not atheists. Therefore your initial premise is completely flawed and that means that any conclusion that you derive from that premise is complete bologna. Your argument is against communism, not atheism.
I'm happy to move on to ID, if you are. However, since ID and creationism is the exact same thing, and both are based solely on your bible, I don't see how it is possible to not use the inconsistencies, contradictions and logical fallacies of the bible to disprove it. However, I am happy to do so if you will also not use anything out of your bible in the debate. But as soon as you use your bible for support, I will take that as acceptance that I get to render that support flawed and useless by pointing out that the bible is completely invalid as any sort of rational or logical support of reality.
Btw, which creation myth would you like to start with? Here are the ones that I am fairly familiar with:
The god yahweh created the world in six days, beginning with the day and night (interesting that the day and night came before the sky or the sun...), then the sky, sea and earth, then the sun, moon and stars, then the animals and finally the first man, Adam, which he shaped in his own image. He later created the first woman, Eve, from Adam’s rib. – Evidence: it says so in Genesis.
The universe is in a never-ending cycle of creation, destruction and rebirth. In the beginning, there was nothing but darkness. The god Vishnu slept in the coils of a giant cobra, and upon wakening, bore the god Brahma from a lotus, who in turn created the world and its inhabitants. – Evidence: it says so in the Vedas
In the beginning of time, creation was mixed together in a great cloud. The lighter parts rose and became the heavens, while the heavier parts descended and became ocean. From this, a sprout began to grow into a flower, and when it opened, the First God appeared. The First God created Izanagi and his wife Izanami, who together plunged a jewel-crested spear into the ocean. When they pulled it out, the first island of the Japanese Archipelago was created. Izanagi and Izanami descended to the island and from there, created the rest of the world – Evidence: it says so in the Kojiki
From the chaos of creation formed a cosmic egg, within which the principles of Yin and Yang became balanced. The creator Pangu emerged from the egg and created the earth and the sky. To separate the two, he stood between them and pushed. The task took 18,000 years, during each day of which the sky grew 10 feet higher and the earth 10 feet thicker and Pangu 10 feet taller – Evidence: it says so in the Sanwu Liji
In the dark void of the beginning of time, the giant Ymir was born from poison and frost, who suckled from the great cow Audumla. From her came the being Buri, who fathered Borr, who fathered the gods Odin, Vili and Ve. Borr’s sons slew Ymir and created the earth from his body. The first man and woman, Ask and Embla, were created from an ash tree and an elm tree respectively – Evidence: it says so in the Eddas
The universe was most likely created through some kind of big bang event from a singularity approximately 13.5 billion years ago. The Earth itself is around 4.56 billion years old, having been born through accretion in the solar nebula and eventually cooled and acquiring an atmosphere. Life on earth progressed and evolved from primitive organisms to increasingly complex and diverse species via mutation and natural selection. Hominids branched off from the ape family tree about 3 to 5 million years ago, with modern man first appearing around 200,000 years ago.
Evidence: Radiometric dating, Hubble’s law, observations of cosmic background radiation, primordial nucleosynthesis, distribution and morphology of galaxies, theory of general relativity, genetics and phylogenetics, heredity, hybridization, the fossil record, comparative sequence alignment, vestigial and homologous structures, acquired antibiotic and pesticide resistance, geographic distribution and correlation, island bio-geography, just to name a few sources.
So, where shall we start?
Here is an example of the "gentleness" and "kindness" that the religious here in the US feel toward people who just want to live their lives free of the oppression of religion: http://atheists.org/blog/2011/07/29/fox-news-facebook-page-on-911-cross-generates-death-threats-against-atheists
Mr. Diamondwoof, RELAX! I'm not attacking you, theres no need for you to defend your case. Maybe its because I can't hear how you would be saying this in person, but in text it sounds like you are angry. I simply presented something for you to consider since you made the comment on theistic regimes doing bad things. I would say its a double edge sword and could be used either way against you or me. I'm not making an argument and I'm not here to argue.
So like I said, I don't see atheists suffering in the U.S. I really don't. It's a free country and from what I see and who I talk to, no one is making anyone convert. Also, I wasn't making a case for creationism...you just brought that up on your own. I want to point out most of these things you present can be switched around. You said you just wanted to point out the dangers of religion and I think its funny, because I presented you something similar and you dismissed it so easily. I told you I would vote for an atheist based of what his views were for the nation. Then you assume I think all atheists are killers? I don't think that way sir. You say you agree that a person can be trustworthy regardless of his faith or lack of faith, but then go and say you would not vote for a man of faith, because you can't trust a man that beleives in a higher power?? I don't know, but I find that silly, but then again those are your views not mine.
Also, you write so much and I get lazy after I read your posts. Like I said I'm just here to talk not to try to make you change your mind. So I'll respond on the ones that I think are most important. I'm on my chow time when I respond so please bare with me. My faith is pretty solid and theres nothing that could shake it. I make it a habit to look into anything that speaks for and against the bible, so thats for the whole weak faith in my bible comment. I think I'm very rational to beleive in a higher power as even scientists beleive in things that can't be proven and also science can't prove everything. I will give examples tomorrow. I got to go to the gym and then eat before I get back to work. Please don't respond with a new set of topics. I just don't have the time to respond to it all. Well see you tomorrow Mr. Diamond woof.
Sifuentes
I'm actually confused with your statements. I don't know why you would be accusing me of being "angry". Just because someone disagrees with you, does not automatically make them “angry”. Just because someone presents either evidence or logical argument that disproves your assertions doesn’t automatically make them “angry” either. If you assume that everyone who disproves your hypotheses is “angry”, maybe you shouldn’t be discussing things in forums such as this, because the atheist community is filled with some pretty smart people who have studied religions (especially xianity) for a very long time.
You presented an assertion that atheists are not to be trusted as leaders based on the actions of communist. I simply pointed out that atheism and communism is not the same thing.
You tried to disallow criticism of the bible even though your entire side of the debate is based on it and it is completely fallacious. Few of the verifiable stories are true, and all of the non-verifiable stories are logical fallacies. This is something that is easily proven, which is why almost all xians want to disallow its discussion. I simply refuse to debate with someone who will not allow me to point out the inconsistencies of their side of the discussion.
As for the US being a "free country", that is what atheists are trying to retain. How many religious organizations are trying to create laws disallowing gays to be married? Xians are desperately trying to strip basic civil liberties from these people based on their own religion. Yes, this is a "free country", but less and less so as xians forces their belief system on the rest of us.
You didn't point out "something similar" to the dangers of religious regimes by quoting the dangers of communism. That was my whole point. You associated atheism with communism, which have nothing to do with each other. As far as "dismissing it easily", it was easy because it was such a strawman argument. If you want to come up with an argument that isn't easily discredited, you should have actually used comparable situations, which would be the abuse of more secular and modern governments upon their citizens. As for me saying that you think atheists are killers, I didn't really say that, I just pointed out that you are the one that compared atheism to communism. And, being in the Middle East, you are witnessing firsthand how oppressive modern theistic governments are. Just because they happen to be muslim, doesn't make them any different from xian regimes.
As for people being "trustworthy", I don't think you understand my position there, either. I know a lot of religious people that I would consider "trustworthy" on a personal level. However, I also can easily see how they emotionally evaluate things that they see and feel, and justify horrible prejudices based on their superstitions. They "assume" god is against gays simply because they don't approve of gays, for example. They don't trust unknown atheists simply because they see atheists as misguided because they don't buy into the xian delusional superstition, even though every atheist that they know are rational, reasonable, and compassionate people. What I'm saying is that they are trustworthy in intent, but sometimes lack rational evaluation of evidence. It's very hard to trust someone's judgment when they put delusional superstition above clear evidence to the contrary.
Yes, there are a few scientists that "believe in a higher power" and if that is as far as it goes, that's fine. However, you are wrong is assuming that science can't prove everything. That is the very definition of science. If any deity actually did exist, it would have an effect on our reality. Anything that has an effect on our reality can be scientifically examined. It really is as simple as that. Since there has never been any evidence of any supernatural being having any effect on reality, the only logical conclusion must be that such beings do not exist.
So, back to creationism. You specifically said you wanted to discuss ID. Intelligent Design is just another name for creationism. So, you want to discuss creationism. And I’m good with that, so what aspect do you want to discuss?
Mr. Diamondwoof,
I really don't like where this is heading. I'm not here to prove anything. Since you keep insisting on this being an argument, I will leave. Take care and thank you for serving in our beloved Marine Corps, GET SOME! Semper Fi
Sifuentes
Sorry, Sifuentes. I must have misunderstood why you posted. I thought you wanted to either know why we can be sure enough about our disbelief in any sort of supernatural influence on our reality or you wanted to debate (in other words, voice each side's evidence to evaluate the strength of each side's position). If you didn't want to do wither of those, I guess I just didn't understand why you posted on this blog in the first place.
Anyway, sorry to run you off. That was in no way my intent. Good luck over there and be sure to keep your head down. :)
@ashley - First, let me apologize for just now responding. I think its great that you are already thinking about things like this. One thing you said really jumped out at me. You wondered if we had 'a god' would we go to him when we die. My question would be whose god would we go to?
The important thing to remember is that religions are like languages. They're always battling each other because they don't realize they're saying the same things.
Just don't ever give up your search for answers.
I am sorry that I can not read all the posts. Just a few notes.
1) I don't know of any religions that recognize everyone who speaks as being authoritative for every religion or all speaking for God. Its simply idiotic.
To say that because people say different things there is no reason or logic or truth is idiotic at best or at least disenguine.
I will move onto 2 later. David
#2 Why do you consider helping your fellow man and doing good as valuable to you? What is your framework for this?
Humanism? Humanism springs from the idea that humans are important because they bear the image of God (Christian Theology).
Science is not about placing value of things. To a person totaly dedicated to living by scientific prinicples and excluding religion there is no bases for "the good" that you claim.
Again Science does not put values on things. A dog is not better then a person. A boy is not better then a rat. The merciless extermination of millions of rats each year to preserve our food supply is the same as the holocaust. That is all that science can say.
To go beyond this is a matter of "faith" or "belief." You believe or place value in a thing and then you express that value "Religion".
I will comment again later on 3
- David
#3 If I understand you correctly you are saying that because an idea is simple it must be untrue?
Please inform Sir Isaac Newton. His theory concerning Gravity is far to simple. Still I wouldn't try jumping off any cliffs.
Sorry I didn't put my name of the last one.
#4 Realy this is the same arguement as number #1. To say that an athiest is an athiest because there are divergent views is basicaly claiming that an athiest is an athiest because he is lazy and wont weed through them.
Very few people view lazzyness as a positive thing.
- David
#5 What religions are you talking about?
The Greek ones? The Asian ones? I only know of ... well none except what ever you are.
Buhdism does not.
Islam does not.
Catholicism does not.
Jeudaism does not.
Protestantism does not.
Realy I can keep going on here. Are you just talking to make yourself sound smart? I don't mean to belittle but maybe you should change your title to "10 Excuses for being an Athiest?"
-David
#6 Part A. Okay. Please don't claim the scholar card again. A child from vacation Bible School could refute this one. The Christian God did not make people sinners. They had the capasity to choose that is all.
- David
#6 Part B. So here we go with basic Christianity 101 presented to a "scholar." Christianity claims that the Bible was writen by the "inspiration" of God. This is more then being "inspired" by a picture or painting. It is suggested that they were "moved by God" that is there are two authors, a divine and a human author. That the divine enabled them to write it therby dealing with your problem with sin.
But realy what is your problem with sin again? You don't believe in it remember. To believe in sin means that there is a right and wrong and posibly someone will judge you.
- David
#7 God does prevent evil (again with the idea of sin) the world could be much worse. The question is should God prevent all evil?
If I know the best way for you to live your life should I make you decide to live my way or should I give you a choice? Christianity claims that he did just that. Not only did he do that but he came in the flesh to show you which way to go.
So with this understanding of the world who is to blame God who showed the way or man who decided not to walk in it.
To state it simply. Individual choice does not limit or discredit the omnipotence of God.
- David
#8 Realy "all babies are born athiest." Where did you get that from? Did you talk to one? Children are taught a great number of things. Math, music art. Are you saying because a child does not understand the world he lives in that teaching him to understand is wrong? Or are you saying Athiest lack understanding?
Again you make staements based on value. That the religions are all the same. What is the basis for this belief and its authority?
- David
#9 Education is almost always based on cumulative knowledge. That is you learn from those that have gone before you. This is true of every discipline, athletics, art, music, math and science. Why should religion be any different? Why is someone who ignores all that came before him to be praised? We usualy call him willfuly ignorant.
- David
#10 No one said your positive actions would be ignored. They just are not enough. You will be judged based upon what you knew to be right and wrong and how you woefuly failed to do. You must not be very in touch with your own actions. I have noticed that the person who actually tries to do good is most aware of just how bad he is and how much he needs help.
- David
@David
# 1 If two people claim to be speaking to the same god, yet disagree with one another, clearly there is a problem with the doctrine and interpretations. The Bible says that your god is not the author of confusion, but many versions of Christianity suggest otherwise.
#2 Humanism is not based on theology. Animals help one another. Animals help humans, and vice versa. People helped one another for thousands of years before there was a Bible, or a Jesus. Atheists donate to charities, and Jews hold fund raisers for kids. Jesus is not required for a being to have care or love for another being. This notion is just ridiculous.
#3 No, you're not correct in your assumption. The point is, that a child's logic is to assume that the "big thing" is the boss and shouldn't be questioned. Upon further research, the moon is probably microscopic compared to stars. That's my point. Do the research, don't just believe in something big and powerful without challenging it's existence.
#4 You have misinterpreted my views so drastically, I don't even recognize them by your responses. I'm having to go back and read them just to see what you're talking about. This reason is simply stating there are so many gods out there, that if one does enough research into each belief, one will likely begin to understand that all of them are equally false. Having studied religions and psychology for more than 13 years, and being a published author on Christianity, it would be hard for anyone to call me lazy, (unless of course they do so blindly without research, which I see is your strong point on many issues). If you really think about it, simply believing what you're told and never challenging authority is the ultimate lazy mentality. Most atheists are freethinking, individual activists who have battled just for basic civil rights, equality of women and gays, and gone against the grain of society for what's right. Atheists may be a lot of things, but lazy isn't one of them.
#5 Before you can belittle, you have to be in a position to do so. Trust me, you are not. You cannot offend me when all you have is hope in magic on your side. The religions I'm speaking of are really the schisms within Christianity.
#6 It's disturbing to know that you actually believe a good, powerful god inspired the words of murders, slavery, killing of infants (1 Sam 15:3), the oppression of women (1 Cor 14:33 & 1 Tim 2:11)... the list goes on. God didn't make people sinners? Romans 5:12 tells us that people are born sinners. This is why Catholics baptize infants.
#7 Do women decide to get raped? Do children decide to be molested? Do elderly people decide to be abused? What about violence against the helpless and children trapped in debris from earthquakes? What decision did they make to lead to that?
#8 We're all born atheist because at the time of birth we do not have a belief in a god. That's what an atheist is. If the baby is not an atheist, what religions are babies? Religion is a choice one makes. They are unable to make that choice, therefore they are free from religion until their parents indoctrinate them stories of metaphysics and induced psychosis.
#9 Again, an atheist does not ignore all those that came before him. He studies them all instead of listening to only one, as the believer does. Willfully ignorant is the refusal to look at science, other religions, and humanism, and then willfully battling it without any prior knowledge of it.
#10 You have no idea what I've done 'right or wrong' or what I've 'failed to do.' Your only judgment of me is that I've reviewed your religious doctrines and rejected the belief. That has no bearing on what I actually "do" day to do.
@Smalley - I'm glad you were confused too, because I also had to go back and re-read each item of your list to try to figure out what David was talking about most of the time. He is obviously one of those people who can't possibly conceive of what it means to be free of the chains of religion. I am amazed when someone like this pops up and "declares" that if someone is an atheists, that means they can't possibly feel compassion or have empathy toward others, that our lives are nothing but hollow shells and we are all just sitting around waiting to die. The willful blindness, as well as the pompousness and conceit just blows me away.
@David - #2 “Why do you consider helping your fellow man and doing good as valuable to you? What is your framework for this?” This comes from the delusion that morality and ethics come from a deity. This couldn’t be farther from the truth. Morality comes from sociological and socioeconomic development. This is clearly evident when you examine morality across social boundaries.
“Science is not about placing value of things.” First, this is a ridiculous statement. Second, this has nothing to do with a persons’ own morality and ethical standards.
“A dog is not better then a person. A boy is not better then a rat.” This statement clearly shows that you have no understanding whatsoever about anything that you are talking about. The only people who actually think this way are sociopaths. This has absolutely nothing to do with atheism.
“You believe or place value in a thing and then you express that value ‘Religion’.” What? This statement doesn’t even make any sense. Placing value on things is not strictly a “religious” mindset. And, usually, the religious place value on things that are completely imaginary.
#3 “If I understand you correctly you are saying that because an idea is simple it must be untrue?” Actually, just the opposite. Usually the simplest explanation is the correct one. However, for an idea to have any validity at all there must be some evidence to support it. No religion, so far, has ever produced any such evidence.
#4 “To say that an athiest is an athiest because there are divergent views is basicaly claiming that an athiest is an athiest because he is lazy and wont weed through them.” So, what you are saying is if someone goes through the effort of examining several different religions or variations of a particular religion and thinks enough to come to the conclusion that they must be false based on evidence and logic, that is “lazy”. But if you just accept whatever dogma of whatever religious fairy tales that you were raised in, that show diligence?
#5 “What religions are you talking about?” That would be the judeo-christian religion. If you don’t understand that, you know practically nothing about your own religion. Why don’t you go ask a catholic priest if someone commits a murder and does not go to confession or repent before that person dies, will that person be held accountable by your “god”? I know what ever catholic priest has told me when I presented that question.
“I don't mean to belittle but…" But you just can’t help yourself?
#6 Part A. “Okay. Please don't claim the scholar card again. A child from vacation Bible School could refute this one.” So, you’ve never heard the phrase “original sin”? Again, apparently you know very little about your own religion.
#6 Part B. So “Christianity claims that the Bible was writen by the "inspiration" of God…. that is there are two authors, a divine and a human author.” Then why are there hundreds of contradictions, inconsistencies, logical fallacies and flat out lies in the bible? Oh right, it’s because it is a construct of man and man alone. Right.
“But realy what is your problem with sin again? You don't believe in it remember.” And, once again, you display your ignorance about atheism. I can explain it to you, I just can’t understand it for you.
#7 “God does prevent evil (again with the idea of sin) the world could be much worse.” Yes, tell that to the Indonesians and the Japanese. Tell that to the 300,000 people that were washed out into the ocean without a single warning from your “loving and compassionate” deity.
“If I know the best way for you to live your life should I make you decide to live my way or should I give you a choice?” It is all too often that the people who make what you would call “evil” decisions are not the victim of those decisions. What about the corporations that sacrifice hundreds of lives for monetary gain that are never held accountable? That is your god in (lack of) action.
#8 “Realy "all babies are born athiest." Where did you get that from?” It is a very simple fact. If not, and if your religion was really the “true” one, babies would be born knowing your “god”. There simply wouldn’t be or have been hundreds of religions. The fact that there are so many religions proves beyond any reasonable doubt that people are not born into a religion, they are indoctrinated into one.
#9 “Education is almost always based on cumulative knowledge. That is you learn from those that have gone before you. This is true of every discipline, athletics, art, music, math and science. Why should religion be any different?” Because there is no “knowledge” when it comes to religion. It is simply interpretation of various fairy tales. All the disciples that you mention are thoughts and concepts that can be challenged, except religion. They can be proven, except religion. They can be questioned and verified, except religion.
#10 “No one said your positive actions would be ignored.” Again, this shows your ignorance about the religion that you are defending. The ONLY thing that matters in your religion is “belief”. Or at the very least that is the single most important thing. Without belief, no matter how good or wholesome a person is, xians claim that there is no way for that person to make it into heaven.
@David - I skipped #1 because you were so far off topic that it would have taken an entire post just to tie your statement back into the thread. So, in that light, I will just continue to ignore it.
Just a suggestion - you might want to do a little research before you decide to jump on threads like this. Most people who are vocal about their atheism know substantially more about a given religion (usually xianity) than pretty much any xian out there, especially laymen, which you appear to be. If, as you said, any child could dispute one of our arguments, you would think that would have happened within almost 700 posts, or do you think you are just that much more knowledgeable about your specific delusional superstition? That certainly wouldn't appear to be the case.
However, the first and foremost reason we are atheists is that there is not a single solitary shred of evidence that has ever been produced by anyone that supports your claim that there is some supernatural sky/spy fairy watching our every move and providing any influence on our reality. Unless and until that happens, it is unlikely to the extreme that you will be able to convince anyone that you are anything more than a zealot that thinks that if you can just yell loud enough or insult someone enough, they will just shut up and let the delusional religious control our lives. And I can tell you right up front: it will never happen.
Mr. Smalley. I am glad you are honest and clarified that it is the Christian God you don't believe in. That narrows it down. I don't know if you can continue to call yourself an Atheist though. Maybe you can go for anti-yahwist. Sort of like a latter day JEDP theorist (its a joke, just a joke).
#1. The issue with denominations is not a divergence of truth but a divergence of opinions, perspectives and culture. This illustration might help.
My son sprays water around in a garden to water it. Some water hits the flowers and they bloom, some the vegetables and they grow big and healthy, and the trees leaves become a darker green.
Is it different water or the same? The same. Is it a different boy? The same boy. Nothing has changed but the plant and what it does with the water.
#2
Check your history. Humanism is relatively new. It came out of the Renaissance. There was a continuum which moved in focus from God to man and back again. You can see it in art and History.
Animals do help themselves and others. Animals normally help humans due to training with some notable exceptions (dolphins). I would not use the natural order of things to exclude a God who made them (there is order and therefore there is no creator?). It just doesn't follow. Jews help because of the same God again not a good reason. Atheist help because they were created in the image of God even though they denies it.
But here is the point that does not make sense. What is the atheist reason for doing good? What is the benefit and does it outweigh the cost? If its a matter of survival of the fittest then I could justify taking care of my family and possibly the race (if it is in jeopardy which it does not seem to be). The rest of you are just competition (even those other people within a healthy population).
#3 I am glad you clarified because I have reread your initial statement and it is not the natural conclusion of your statement. You might want to add it. I only assumed your point was within the point.
That being said being inquisitive or even skeptical about facts presented to you is a natural part of any learning model. I can't say its a very good reason not to believe. I think you should stick with the first one it was better.
#4
It is interesting that you claim they are all "equally" wrong. What is your metric?
That being said a great multitude of religions is of little purpose for disqualifying all. It only means it is an important issue. I haven't seen anything thus far that challenges this.
It took a great deal of time to do many things. Getting a man on the moon, building a sky scraper, ect... Just because you look for truth for 14 years and found nothing means well nothing. It just means your still looking or need to check your glasses.
#5
Could you specify. I have leaders in the major ones on hand and none have specified the "truth" you have said.
Catholic? No.
Methodist? No.
Lutheran? No.
Pentecostal? No.
Eastern Orthodox? No.
Believe me I asked them. Try their official webpages too. They might be quite enlightening to your "study"
- David
#6
Being born a sinner does not mean that God made you one. It means your parents made you one. If God waited for "pure" people it would be a long wait.
To say that he made slavery is a gross misunderstanding of the times and cultures in which the truth was given. What you are reading are limitations on that practice imposed by God not endorsements (really who are you reading).
The judgement and destruction of whole people groups was the way of life back then. It was the only way to insure the survival of a group. The Amalekites that you speak of were a truly wicked people who prayed on the Israelite and the Palestinians alike (check the context). Women are not innocent just because they are female. Children grow up to follow in their parents footsteps. Further the raising of someone elses children was a mercy reserved for friends not enemies. We are talking about truth impacting the culture are we not?
#7 No they don't but you do. These are actions when another person enforces his or her will on that person. These actions are all to human and are not indicative of the divine.
As to the debris there is a number of issues at play here so I will have to ask you to clarify. Are you talking about the debris or the earthquake?
#8
Again with ideas that do not come from science or even from basic atheism. Atheism is a choice as well. You choose to not believe in God. Not knowing something is entirely different.
It is different to not believe the world is round then to not be informed on that fact. Babies are no more atheist then flat worlders. They just don't know.
#9
Really are you now saying that because you studied a little that the others have not studied? I have seen atheist who are that for the exact same reason as you claim believers are. They simply were told so and then they believed. There is nothing intrinsically smart about not thinking there is an answer.
#10
What I can say is this.
#1 You appear to be human
#2 Humans fail/sin/do evil. You have already said so.
#3 These prove my point without even knowing you.
I will try to get around to the next guys comments when I have time. Got to take care of my kid now. Talk again soon.
Dimondwoof really chains? Religion is the expression of what you believe. The only time they are chains is when you don't believe.
Now that we have established you as the biggest snoot on the planet we can move on.
You are right "only a sociopath would think that way." That sociopath is Ingrid Newkirk
the founder of PETA.
Most do not believe the same as her. They bare the marks of the religious populations that built the societies in which they live. There is a system in place where certain values are in place based upon how the collective population views the world. The expression of this is called religion. Even if you want to deny God you can not deny the anthropological effects of Religion or faith on the population. It is the structure by which we build societies.
Right now as an Atheist you are stating what you believe (or don't believe) based on your reasons. You want to cut down the tree you are standing on. What are you going to use to supplant it or do you plan to hang in mid air.
#3 There is plenty of evidence. Pick up a copy of one of one of Lee Strobel's books. The question is whether we discover one that you will simply dismiss out of hand.
#4 No. You were using that as your proof. I am saying I don't accept it and neither should you for the reasons stated. To make it simple. Just because my son does not solve the math problem does not mean there is no answer. Even if he looked at everyone elses homework.
#5 I take it that you came from Catholicism. Your a little late to protest a works based theology. Luther, Calvin and Zwingli did that a long time ago. That being said the Catholic Priests I talk to do not view a murder by someone who is not a Christian the same as a murder by an atheist. There is a little thing called grace that comes into play. But I am not Catholic so I will leave you to your protest about Catholics.
But as a protestant who has helped soldiers stare death in the face I can say you are an unequivocal liar. Christianity does not say that. And even being judged is not equivalent to having the same outcome. Again the grace thing. Christianity is not based upon the works of the person but the works of Christ.
- David
@David - Yes, chains of slavery. Atheism, having a lack of bonds, would be free of that slavery.
"you as the biggest snoot on the planet" insults such as this is the sign of a weak intellect.
So, what does Ingrid Newkirk have to do with anything on this thread?
"There is a system in place where certain values are in place based upon how the collective population views the world. The expression of this is called religion" Well, the religious call it religion. However, your very statement supports my assertion that morality is based on sociology as opposed to religion. Thanks. And, by the way, I have never claimed that mass delusional superstition doesn't have an effect on society. I just assert that it is ALWAYS a negative one.
"You want to cut down the tree you are standing on." What? This doesn't make any sense at all. Yes, the truths that I accept are based on evidence. I also allow evidence to alter the truths that I accept. How is that "cutting down the tree that I'm standing on"?
Sure there is anecdotal BS that people throw around, there are fallacious statements that people express that have no basis in reality. The basis of xianity is the bible and the bible is filled with nothing but fanciful fairy tales. This clearly disproves xianity as nothing but a delusion.
#4 If you son can't solve a math problem, that doesn't prove that the problem is unsolvable. However, if your son can't rectify the math problem "1+1=4", that only proves that he is using logic to determine that the problem is unsolvable. However, if your son accepted the "fact" that 1+1=4 just because some preacher told him that it's true, that just means he is gullible and deluded. The same holds true for religion: those that follow religions that are proven to be false are not being diligent. They are just being gullible.
#5 No, you would be wrong (again). You may or may not agree with this statement, and I know that religious leaders try to weasel out of this one way or the other, but we are basically talking "6 of one, half dozen of the other". You can throw all the technicalities you want at this argument, but I (and I'm sure Smiley) have talked to enough religious people to know that this is a common belief in all cults of the xian religion.
Again with the insults. Very "christian" of you. It is no less than I would expect from what attitude you have presented so far. But, as I said before, many xians DO say that.
Xianity is based on the works of people. That is why the bible is so inconsistent and contradictory. That is why there is no "book of jesus". That is why its so easy to prove that the books that have direct quotes were written dozens if not decades and centuries after his supposed death. That is why jesus never shows up in any other literature (apart from religious literature) of the time. All the evidence clearly and obviously points to this religion being nothing but a bunch of fairy tales.
@D. Smalley - Sorry to have misspelled your name in my last post. My bad!
Merry Christmas to all!! (sorry so late!)
And Happy Dies Natalis Invicti Solis to you and everyone.
(that means Happy Birthday of the Unconquered Sun ((yes, Sun, NOT son)), which is what the winter solstice celebration is really all out. :)
Hahaha if you say so...
Live Dogma Debate Radio Show TONIGHT (Tuesday, Jan 03, 2012) at 7PM CST to discuss these reasons for atheism and more... www.dogmadebate.com to listen live, 214-377-1166 to get on the air.
-David Smalley
David,
I was brought up as an atheist and yet taught to respect religion, both my parents are atheists, but i went to a Catholic school in France and then a Protestant school in England. When I was young my school mates would make fun of me because i was not baptised and because I didn't understand where God came from. I have read the Bible, traveled to many Muslim countries, I have visited Budhist temples in the Himalayas, Hindu temples in India. I know nothing of religion, but of what I have seen and what I think I understand, it seems to me that many people rely on religion to guide them through life for they have nothing else. They are scarred, uneducated (through lack of means most of the time), and they fear death and the possible emptiness of after-life. These have never seemed like free people to me but i will always respect another human being not for his religious beliefs but as a whole.
I have the impression people believe in a god because they hope there is a future after life. I hope there is none. I would rather live a fulfilled life-time than face eternity in a place i cannot garantee i will go to.
Initially I wrote this message to thank you for your insight and I hope you will continue with your projects. After reading your comments I know I only desire one thing and it is for my life to be as fulfilled as yours.
I am French and I hope you can forgive my spelling mistakes. I am a medical student but i have always been fascinated to why people would believe in a greater power and I wish i could also study psycology at a more in-depth level.
Kindest regards to you and your whole family,
Rachel
The first Dogma Debate show is done! Listen Now: http://www.spreaker.com/page#!/show/dogma_debate_with_david_smalley
@Rachel,
Thank you very much Rachel, for your kind words. It is very often that people who investigate many religions often determine that all of them are equally inaccurate.
Personally, I looked for a god so closely, I could finally see that one didn't exist.
You're right. People do go to religion for comfort. But as I discussed in my radio show tonight, that comfort is also an illusion. Upon further investigation the notion that a god is real, yet allows these types of things to happen, is even more terrifying than the alternative.
Thanks again for your post. It was very sweet and thoughtful. I hope you continue your journey as well, and touch others through your medical profession. As I said in my book, "You won't have the chance to make a difference after life, so be someone's guardian angel now."
@ Dimondwoof
I can say that I am getting rather board with this conversation. If we can move past your hurt feelings that would be benefisial. To state the obvious. It seems the majority of the impact of your statements come from hurt feelings. Maybe thats your real reason for not believing in God. Maybe he hurt your feelings. The fact that I hurt your feelings in a debate is inconsequential but I will live with it. So if I truely hurt the feelings of a cold calculating synical athiest ... well sorry.
That being said I hope you begin to study the nonsence you spew (outside your ideology) before you spew it. Even though you make many claims to have your dialogue does not bare that mark.
The positive influence of religion has been felt in every area of life. Hospitals, schools, Universities, legal, military, womens rights, the end of slaver and civil rights. The wooden leg you stand on good Sir is roten. Try reading "The Death of Adam: Essays in Modern Thought" by Marilynne Robinson Its a good read.
I have yet to find anything that resembles proof or reason in your arguments except your perception of Religion which is considered the lowest level of evidence and only useful when connected to a fact. "Bob is bad" is not considered weighty unless you tell what Bob did wrong.
Statements like,
"the bible is so inconsistent and contradictory" is similar to this unless you give a valid example.
and
"And, by the way, I have never claimed that mass delusional superstition doesn't have an effect on society. I just assert that it is ALWAYS a negative one."
Diamondwoof (realy you think your a diamond dog) if I don't comment again try saying something more interesting. Thanks.
-David
@Anonymous David
I know Dimondwoof will respond to you on his own, but I would like to make a brief comment concerning your post to him.
To begin, I try my best to monitor this site and prevent (or at least delete) negative posts from either side. I refuse to have a site dedicated to childish fighting. All of the regular posters here know that.
However, many believers tend to take offensive to atheists simply stating facts as well. As a personal example, I was talking with a dear friend the other night, and he said "No where in that Bible does it tell me to worry about other people's business or judge what you're doing." I said "Actually, John 7:24 says for you to pass righteous judgment." He yelled at me and stormed out of the room. I only stated a fact but it struck a deep nerve with him, even though I said nothing offensive.
Please consider this:
1) Atheists hardly have any animosity toward any god. You must remember, an atheist does not believe any god exists. So having anger towards something you don't acknowledge would be as silly as you being angry with leprechauns.
2) Typically, the frustration of atheists (which I try to speak out against) stems from the debate process of trying to get a logical, scientific point across to someone who believes in magic. Those people aren't just 'believers' but many of them are quite arrogant and condescending in their comments to atheists, saying things like "every tongue will confess and every knee will bow." That type of assumptive behavior can be frustrating, which you may in-turn mistake for anger with "God."
3) I know there are nearly 700 posts here and it's impossible to read them all, but both myself and Dimondwoof have proven many Bible contradictions. Here are a few to research:
Exodus 15:3 vs Romans 15:33
Matthew 1:16 vs Luke 3:23
John 10:30 vs John 14:28
Genesis 7:2 vs Genesis 7:9
Matthew 5:1-2 vs Luke 6:17-20
Genesis 32:30 vs John 1:18
There are many more.
@Anon David - Hmm. If you are bored with the conversation, why are you continuing it? Ah, I get it. You seem more interested in expressing your ad hominem attack about my "hurt feelings", than actually discussing the issues. Gotcha.
I have to say, I don't really *feel* like I have hurt feelings. I certainly don't refuse to believe in Santa or the boogie man because I have "hurt feelings". I don't refuse to accept the existence of leprechauns because I have "hurt feelings". I don't refuse to worship Zeus because I have "hurt feelings". Why would I refuse to buy into your delusional superstition simply because I have "hurt feelings"? You seem to think it's a "fact" that you hurt my feelings? I guess you get that "fact" the same place you get your other "facts". LOL
So, my claims don't bare the mark of study, huh? Are you saying that it doesn't take 3 times more water than what is currently on earth to flood the earth completely? Are you saying that it wouldn't require raining at a rate of 5.5 inches per minute in order to increase the water levels of the oceans over Mt Everest in 40 days? Because I can show you the math that proves that it does. Are you saying that Noah's arc wasn't 450 feet long, 50 feet wide and had 3 levels, each only 10 feet tall as described in Genesis 6:15? Or are you saying that I am completely off base when I assert that it would be impossible to fit 7424 mammals, 4598 birds and 3724 reptiles (total of AT LEAST 15,746 animals), PLUS all the food that it would take to feed them for over a year (again, at the very least) in the arc?
Or are you saying that in Genesis 1:31, god doesn't say that he is satisfied with his work, and then turned right around and in Genesis 6:6 he didn’t say he is dissatisfied with his work? Maybe you are claiming that it is untrue that in 2 Chron 7:12,16 the bible says that god dwells in chosen temples, yet in Acts 7:48 the bible says that god does not dwell in temples? Maybe you claim that you agree that god is never tired and never rests as it says in Is 40:28, but you also claim to believe that the bible is true when, in Ex 31:17, it states that god is tired and rests, or in Gen where gods rests on the 7th day?
I could go on and on, but you get the idea. The assertion that there are hundreds of contradictions, inconsistencies and logical fallacies is a pretty simple *fact* to verify.
I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, it appears you require it one more time. Not everyone who is delusionally superstitious is evil. However, you can't claim that there has never been a hospital, school, or university that was NOT religion based that has provided a positive influence on society. However, I can certainly claim that slavery in this country was not possible without religion backing it up. And xians where some of the biggest supporters of slavery. Xians were also some of the biggest proponents of bigotry against non-whites until it became anti-social to do so. Even then, that is why most republican right-wingers hate Obama so much. They dislike him because he is a democrat, but they HATE him because he is black. However, just because people who are religious do good things, that doesn't mean that religion is responsible for those good deeds. The proof of this is that there are religious people who do horrendous things, and there are a LOT of non-religious people who do nothing but good deeds. It is beyond question that Hitler, for example, was a devout christian. That, in itself, proves that there is nothing morally superior about religion, especially yours.
To be honest, it doesn't surprise me at all that you refuse to acknowledge the evidence that I have presented throughout this blog, and that you can't "find anything resembling proof or reason". You are absolutely correct that the assertion "Bob is bad" without any evidence is completely invalid. Much like saying that yhwh or any other god exists without evidence is also completely invalid. However, I believe I have presented sufficient evidence for any assertion that I have presented here. And this includes my assertion that religion always has a negative effect on people. Again, that in no way implies that religious people can only have a negative impact on society. But training your mind to believe a delusion despite mountains of evidence that it is nothing but a superstitious fairytale can't have any positive affect on you or the people around you. Purposefully ignoring the truth is not productive.
As to your ad hominem attack on my character that is completely unfounded, well, I'll just write that off to your xian nature. If you don't comment again, I'll just assume that, since I don't agree with you, you will take that as "not interesting".
@Anon David - As for reading any xian-centric literature, I think I'll pass. I certainly don't want to contribute any money into that nonsense. If Marilynne, or anyone else for that matter, had any compelling evidence, we'd be hearing it in any and every debate that ever occurs. However, since we are not, it's obvious that the evidence isn't there. Most of those apologetic works tend to spew nonsense like "look at how complicated the universe is. Since I can’t wrap my mind around how it was created naturally, it MUST have been "created" by some sort of “intelligence”. And since it was "created" and the only god that we acknowledge is yhwh, then it MUST have been that being who created it. And since it was ywhw that created the universe, he MUST hate fags as I do". Or "since I can't imagine how something evolved, it MUST be an example of irreducible complexity. And since there is something that is irreducibly complex, that means an intelligent entity MUST have created it. And since the only entity that I can imagine creating something is yhwh, that means he MUST exist. And that proves that my religion is right." Or, better yet, “you can’t explain something to my satisfaction, or you admit that science can’t explain something (yet), that means that my delusional superstition MUST be the correct by default.”
These kinds of irrational, illogical random leaps of ignorant "faith" and completely non sequitur thinking goes to show just how damaging religion is to the rational thought process and therefore society as a whole.
You don't believe in God, but yet it seems you atheists are obssesed with him. "Silly" Mr.Smalley said about being angry at something they don't believe. Yet here you are with spite trying to "open our eyes" with your belief (yes atheisism is a belief). What do you care if I believe in God? I have a reason on why I should care why you are an atheist, but if you don't believe, why do you put sooooo much effort to talk about God and hold meetings about God and what you can do to stop the spread of God?? Please don't respond with how bad you have it in America.
Another thing I want to ask is; do you think being an atheist makes you a better person?? How is it more superior then a belief in God??
Hitler was an athiest, by the way. Pick up Table Talk. Most prominent figures in a dictatorship are athiests...
Anthony
@Anthony - First, the only reason atheists are, as you call it, "obsessed" with religion is because there are so many people trying to shove their childish, delusional superstition down our throats.
Second, you might want to look up the term. "Atheism" is very distinctly the LACK of belief. It's no more a "belief" than not collecting stamps is a "hobby".
Third, I don't care what crazy childish superstitions you hold, as long as you don't try to legislate them onto the rest of us.
Fourth, "why do you put sooooo much effort to talk about God and hold meetings about God and what you can do to stop the spread of God??" What we are talking about is keeping religion from taking over our lives and enslaving us. We do, at times, try to explain WHY we don't hold your crazy superstitions, but people like you don't seem to care about rational thought.
"do you think being an atheist makes you a better person?? How is it more superior then a belief in God?? " Only in that I'm not so childish as to need to believe in delusional fairy tales. Believing in god is training yourself to ignore clear evidence that your beliefs are utter nonsense. Other than that, not as a whole.
And, by the way, Hitler was most certainly NOT an atheist. He was christian (specifically catholic) and had the weight of the pope and the church behind him. You might want to read something other than xian propaganda. Just repeating a lie does not make it true.
By the way, Anthony, the statement "Hitler was an athiest... Most prominent figures in a dictatorship are athiests..." is what is called an "ad hominem". That means "an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it."
To be more specific, attacking atheism by saying that some dictators are atheist (which is patently untrue, by the way) first does not in any way mean that other atheists want to be dictators or are immoral in any way. There are plenty of people who are very devout religious that are just as deviant, especially in the abrahamic religions.
Second, that, in no way actually supports the truth of your delusional superstition. It doesn't matter if there are reason that people "should" believe (even if it weren't true that there are substantially stronger reasons that they shouldn't, as is the case with religion) if the belief is distinctly untrue. That, in itself, is enough reason to reject the belief.
The possibility of the existence of God does raise some deep questions that I think would be foolish to ignore. Due diligence does seem like a prudent course of action. I have struggled with many of the questions and issues many non-believers have and yet have come to know God despite the fact that I cannot explain everything. So many people get angry and argue about this topic but I think open honest debate with mutual respect would be better. So instead of berating someone for a position rather ask why is that your position and then try to answer the response. Too many religious people do not take enough time or care to really listen to those that doubt or are sceptical. It is my opinion that God hides himself and rewards those that seek after him. In some way I do not really like this, it’s just how I have found it to be. I am in no way affiliated to www.rzim.org but have found it a valuable resource in trying to deal with these issues. I wish you all well, no matter what your position is. ;-)
@anon - Well said. I have to say, I had the opposite results when trying to seek out god. The more I tried to understand "him", the more I realized that the xian religion was nonsensical and fallacious. Since "god" is based and related directly to the religion, it only makes sense that his existence was just another lie told by those that want to control us through fear and hope. Or at least taught just because the teachers were indoctrinated and the teachings became "tradition".
One question I have for you is this: How do you justify the belief in the existence of the xian god when there are so many contradictions with the religious basis? Is it just simply that you "feel" him and that allows you to ignore all the evidence that he doesn't exist or do you think you have some actual concrete evidence that there is some sort of supernatural power overseeing things? (I know that's more than 1 question, but they all seem to relate to the basic gist of the inquiry).
I'm not trying to be belligerent, I'm just trying to be straight forward and concise with my questions. You seem like the kind of person who would be willing to answer an honest question without me having to beat around the bush to try to not "offend", so hopefully we can have a civilized discussion.
Thanks for joining the thread! :)
I am Dr.pradyumna,26 from India.
first off, i am glad that most of you guys are putting forth your views in a sensible manner (except for few anonymous posts). I perse, do not wish to or intend to offend anybody. I just want to express myself and my feelings towards theism/atheism.
forget about the Bagavatgeeta, Bible etc.. etc..because i just feel that these were written by some human beings passed on from generation to generation (99% correct). So whatever people quote from these books do not matter to me
forget about hinduism, christianity, islam etc etc..because i feel that belonging to a certain religion has got nothing to do with this discussion.
reasons which influenced me to take up theism
BASED ON BIOLOGY
1) Male:female ratio of human beings and animals are kept constant at 1.05:1 (WHO CAN MAINTAIN SUCH A RATIO)
2) Attraction for opposite sex (WHO GIVES THAT ATTRACTION CAPABILITY)
3) siblings from the same parents appear to be similar
4) what happens inside a mothers womb?
5) creation of life in general
6) there are receptors in human body even for drugs like for example cocaine, cannabis etc
7) why everybody has 206 bones exactly why not 4000 or 10 bilion
8) what makes plants and animals grow?
9) the food chain- why should lower animals be in larger number - i mean who is maintaining that same pattern
10) who is balancing everything in life? NOT me for sure and neither you for sure
etc etc etc etc etc etc i can give a billion examples like that
BASED ON TIME, SPACE AND CAUSATION
1) the vastness of space
2) the onset of time
3) the presence of fire, water, various elements and compounds
4) the movements of planets and stars ( i mean why anything should move )
etc etc etc etc etc i can give a lot of examples
5) why living beings should only depend on water why not other elements or compounds
6) what is the cause for all the presence - dont tell me it can happen all by itself...
LIKE WISE WHAT IS DESTINY, FATE, HAPPINESS, SADNESS,ANGER, GRIEF, ETC ETC AND VARIOUS OTHER QUALITIES dont tell me we have the complete control over all these
reasons which makes me believe that there is no god
1. partiality in every sense
2. Poverty and hunger
3. no exact punishment seen for wrongdoers
4. no reward for honesty and for other good qualities- so why do people have to be good
5. weak people are not helped but instead supressed
i am quite amused by the way theists put forth their ideas based on religious books wherein they dont even know who has written it in the first place.
I want facts- nobody believed in the 14 or 15 th century that someday some person would walk on the moon, have mobiles and latest gadgets, computers, tap nuclear energy, build atom bombs, have aeroplanes take them placesetc etc
it is just a matter of time
i guess we are not having enough brain to analyse and interpret the whole universe
teach a dog some scientific formulas- why cant it reproduce formulas let alone create new formulas -reason is it is not having sufficient brain power to analyse scientifically
may be 500 years from now we can get a real picture of the presence of us and the universe
conclusion:
IF THERE IS NO GOD, AND I BELIEVE IN GOD ALL MY LIFE - I WILL ONLY BE A FOOL
IF THERE IS GOD AND I DONT BELIEVE HIM - I WILL BE A BIGGER FOOL AND THE STAKES MIGHT BE HIGHER
guess i made a point, try to believe in god it might save u one day who knows
@Dr. Pradyumna - So, after all that, your ultimate argument comes down to Pascal's Wager. "If you erroneously believe in God, you lose nothing (assuming that death is the absolute end), whereas if you correctly believe in God, you gain everything (eternal bliss). But if you correctly disbelieve in God, you gain nothing (death ends all), whereas if you erroneously disbelieve in God, you lose everything (eternal damnation)."
How should you bet? Regardless of any evidence for or against the existence of God, Pascal argued that failure to accept God's existence risks losing everything with no payoff on any count. The best bet, then, is to accept the existence of God.
There have been several objections to the wager:
* that a person cannot simply will himself to believe something that is evidently false to him
* that the wager would apply as much to belief in the wrong God as it would to disbelief in all gods, leaving the the believer in any particular god in the same situation as the atheist or agnostic, if not worse because a god is surely going to punish those that believe in the wrong god than those that simply don't believe in any.
* that God would not reward belief in him based solely on hedging one's bets
* and so on.
Ultimately, this is a fools argument because there are many more arguments against it than there are for it. As you clearly point out, all the evidence supporting a supernatural being is at best circumstantial, but most is clearly speculative, which is really no evidence at all.
There is a metor in the Gulf of Mexico. Sientists can EASILY calculate that one it hit the earth, it caused a massive chain reaction, causing many species to go extinct. Now, young earth or not, if dinosaurs AND humans lived during the same time, doesent that mean that humans AND Dinosaurs died out?
I am Dr. pradyumna,26 from India
first off, i want to put forth my thoughts and do not wish or intend to hurt anyone. I am glad that except for few posts most of them have expressed their feelings in a sensible manner.
I would like to put it across in such a way that it should be simple yet sensible and even with limited knowledge of english people should be in a position to understand.
forget about the holy books like the bagavatgeeta, bible etc etc...
according to me these were written by some intelligent individual(s) which is passed on from generation to generation. Hence i cant be sure that these are the wordings of the lord himself.... and i am pretty much sure that most of them are following it blindly..
forget about religions in the world, there are thousands of them based on region, etc etc and there are thousands of gods. so which religion i belong to is not much of a concern and more so is not the topic of discussion.
the facts which makes me strongly feel the presence of a superior intelligence is
1. The male:female ratio of humans is kept constant at 1.05:1
so is the sex ratio of most of the species
2. attraction to opposite sex in various species
3. gravity- common to all the things on the planet
4. we dont know the boundaries of space and time
5. what makes things grow from animals to plants to everything living or even better is why should anything grow
6. consistency of the presence of all the tissues and organs in all animals at all times
7. there is no grand equation for quantum mechanics and general theory of relativity or simply saying there is no correlation between the world of the small and the world of the big
8. time and space before big bang
9. variety in species, planets, stars, human qualities...
10. ageing
etc etc i can give a billion examples...
things which makes be not to believe in god
1. poverty
2. no consistency in punishing wrongdoers
3. some children in developing countries are starved to death- there is no place for goodness, badness, belief in god, no mercy whatsoever - there is no reason as to why a starving child should be thankful to anybody even to a supreme intelligence
4. there is no reward for goodness and sometimes bad things are favoured
5. randomness of living creatures
6. survival of the fittest- some species are simply wipedout - i mean why should anybody be born and make them die in an unpleasant way
so, in my opinion - another 500 to 1000 years are required to get a clear picture of our universe and our lives
we dont have sufficient developed brain to analyse and interpret all the happenings in this universe for example teach a dog some math - it does not even reproduce the problems let alone get newer formulas because it does not have sufficient brain capacity to get those things
i mean who would have thought 400 to 500 years back that someday someperson would land on moon, have highend gadgets, have sophisticated nuclear energy source, aeroplanes to take them places etc etc
CONCLUSION:
so the presence of a superior intelligence cannot be ruled out nor can it be proven - there is absolutely not way atleast at the present times
so if there is no god and i believe in him all my life- i will only be a fool
and if there is god and i dont believe him- i will be a bigger fool- the chances are -the stakes might be higher
so people try to believe in god although i know it is not very easy and some day this belief might help you or might not help you who knows...
@anon - LOL That's a good one. Let me speculate on the theist's responses. I can think of at least 2:
1. God didn't want us to die out so he somehow magically prevented it.
2. The dinos where bigger than us, and we survived at least a couple of ice ages, so it makes "sense" that we could have survived the meteor, since other "small" creatures did. As a matter of fact, so did sharks and alligators and crocs.
The second one is relatively easy to dispute, since the only animals that survived larger than about the size of rats were all water-dwelling. The first, however, is impossible to dispute. No matter how nonsensical and improbable the story, they will always come up with something and when they get painted into a corner, they will just invoke the "god-magic" clause. Unfortunately, I just had a dispute with a young-earther friend about the great flood and I was astounded by the hoops that he jumped though to get around the physics, including claiming that scientists have no idea how to interpret the scientific data that they collect, but somehow the religious can use it to "prove" the flood actually happened. To be honest, it was mind-boggling and amazing. I had no idea an otherwise fairly ration mind could perform those types of mental gymnastics.
I guess everyone needs to not believe in something.
I will just say this..I respect you, you have an excellent knowledge! Much more profound then I. I do not know anything about other religions; I have dabbled, but my knowledge is limited.
You have some very good points, but i have read some of the scientific laws & theories and they coincide with Yahweh. I am a non-denominational Christian and go to a Church where we follow the Bible straight from the text. I honestly just think that you have the wrong view point of the Bible. Yes the Old Testament is gruesome in some aspects, but the Laws were different back then. If you read up on History it was quite a nasty world. But then again....just a hundred years or so ago we had slaves; so have we really changed?
to all atheist, look at yur face n body, and tell what if god put your sex organ at your nose? human body, this earth,the sky , the balance of nature. is so wonderfully done. there is a creator that man is trying to search and he has already sent the god-son to teach us, repent before you die in eternal damnation,read the bible,
there it says that god is clearly seen when you look up the skies...,
"to all atheist..."
So, your argument that god exists is that you can't fathom evolution by natural selection, so therefore your delusion *must* be the only way people were created. Argument out of ignorance, ya, that's a great argument. Your "evidence" of god is speculation and, at best circumstantial.
As for reading the bible, many of us have. That's why we're atheists in the first place. The bible is so full of contradictions, inconsistencies, logical fallacies and flat out lies, it's hard to understand how any rational adult would believe such fairy tales.
Just thought I'd let everyone know, the last two episodes of my radio show (#7 & #8) included a preacher live in studio to discuss abortion and the Trinity; and an ex-Mormon Elder telling intimate secrets about the practices behind closed doors.
You can listen now at the top of the page on www.dogmadebate.com
I don't know if there is a God or not, I have always asked questions and learnt about different religions turning from one to the other, I cannot blindly believe and follow, and there are still so many questions noone has been able to give me a good enough answer, like why women are regarded so poorly in religion? This is one of the main reasons why I can't stand to support anything that will demean me so much. I'm not sure whether there is a heaven or hell, I'm not sure if God exists, noone is really sure of anything, but if God is as good as everyone says then i'm sure David that you would go to heaven, because you sound like you are a very good person, which is more than I can say for people who claim to be religious and are actually terrible human beings!
my family circle is catholic and are very devoted...
im different... totally different... i cant live pretending everyday that i believe in such things that don't exist....
YES, i dont believe in "jesus/god(s)/heaven/hell/devil/ghost etc..."
i havent seen any of these... no proof or whatsoever... its just that its not interesting for me... =/
im not genius or a smart guy... i'm just a "practical being"...
but i believe in "aliens"... ^_^ that they exist and there's life in other planets where they live... i haven't seen one but its more interesting... =)
i do good... i dont hurt people... i dont need religion... i can live w/out "god(s)"
im happily living now... im free!!!!!! no worries!!! and all is well....
-franz
(atheist)
my family circle is catholic and are very devoted...
im different... totally different... i cant live pretending everyday that i believe in such things that don't exist....
YES, i dont believe in "jesus/god(s)/heaven/hell/devil/ghost etc..."
i havent seen any of these... no proof or whatsoever... its just that its not interesting for me... =/
im not genius or a smart guy... i'm just a "practical being"...
but i believe in "aliens"... ^_^ that they exist and there's life in other planets where they live... i haven't seen one but its more interesting... =)
i do good... i dont hurt people... i dont need religion... i can live w/out "god(s)"
im happily living now... im free!!!!!! no worries!!! and all is well....
-franz
(atheist)
I don't know if you believe in Joy and in Love and in Goodness, but I believe that God is good, that God is joy, that God is love. So if these things exist, then God exists. There is always that thing that says if God is all-good and all-knowing, than why is there evil and pain? I think it's because evil is emptiness and pain is the things that tells us something is wrong. As long as there is emptiness, there will be a hunger--a pain for fulfillment. And if God is good he will not fill us with love unless we ask him to because he would never take away freedom of choice. So if everyone is seeking for fufillment, for joy, for love, then everyone is seeking for God and therefore to be a part of Him. Listen to Gungor's God is NOT a white man, kind of corny music, excellent points. I don't know who you are, but I want you to know I love you so much and I will be praying for you.
Dear David,
I love you. You are my child. I don't know what history you refer to because I ask only for justice and mercy to be acted out. If you have read my"book" as you call it, please recall that I sat and ate with prostitutes and outcasts, I was homeless, and I died the death of a criminal. As for your bowels, if you mistreat them enough I will cause them to fall out because it is the way I have made the body to work.
As for the world being flat, how would people in earlier times be able to understand that concept? My goal in the Bible was to explain certain things like love, not things that would have taken several more books to explain.
Lastly, I want you to know once again that I love you, you are fearfully and wonderfully made and made in my image. If you cannot seek after me by the name of God, please, just search for joy.
Blessings and love that surpasses your understanding,
God
I ache for you, for the fact that your family turned their back on you when they should have been proud of you for asking questions and seeking for the truth. Please continue seeking. Don't give up. God is love and love is so very real. You were made in the image of Love.
...I want you to know something else as well...which I hate talking about. I have been sexually and physically abused by my parents. GOD! I hate saying that. but I was. I had a time where I absolutely did not believe in a God because a merciful God would have killed me. A Christian, my family said, is not supposed to be a victim. God is supposed to be one that person's side. WHAT THE CRAP GOD? I wanted to kill myself by age ten. I was so ashamed and embarrassed and grossed out. But I couldn't because I would miss the sunsets. And then I went to college, and I found that I was just searching for love, so I was looking for God. I don't know why things are allowed to happen. But I do know that out of my pain has come a force of my belief and hope and desperate love for life as it is actually unfolding around me which has brought blessings from a curse like water from a stone, like life from a tomb, like the actual story of God over and over. I love you. God loves you so very dearly. And he is so angry over your abuse. Every pain you feel he feels too. Please reply if you would like to talk with me, I'll send you my school address if you reply.
@Anon - "I don't know if you believe in Joy and in Love and in Goodness... So if these things exist, then God exists."
No, we atheists do not "believe" in joy, love and goodness, we know they exist because we experience them every day. However, YOU are the one making the connection from those emotions to some imaginary fairy. Just because you make that unimaginably intangible connection, does not make this a "fact" in any way.
As a matter of fact, the existence of these things is yet MORE proof that your delusional superstition is just that; a delusional superstition. If these things ONLY came from your sky fairy, they would be universal, just like morality. Because people find joy, love, goodness, and morality in different things proves beyond doubt that these things from from within each of us and not from an individual source.
Your justification of including "freedom of choice" is so delusional, it's laughable. You apparently don't even understand what that means, but you are spewing some nonsense that you were indoctrinated into as a child.
Please take your condescending, self-righteous nonsense someplace else and stop embarrassing yourself in forums that require some semblance of intellect.
You've started your assumption off with "if God is... then this is... which is proof that God exists." It's still all based on an 'if.'
If Ganesha is love, and love exists, then Ganesha exists! Praise Ganesha, let's all be Hindu.
Thanks, but I'm very happy now. I realized that my family turned on me because they are afraid. I reminded them of the questions they once asked, and had suppressed because it made them uncomfortable.
Much like homophobics 'hating' gays is really just the projection of their own internal hate for homosexual desires, the believers that 'hate' atheists, only hate us because we remind them that so many questions are unanswered, and that scares them.
Dear God,
Thank you for posting to my blog, and I'm sorry for ever doubting you.
I noticed, that around the same time you were posting here, there was a powerful tornado slamming through Illinois and Kentucky, killing over 20 people and destroying thousands of homes, including a school with more than 70 children inside.
Were you so distracted by my blog that you didn't know that was happening? Or did you not care about those people enough to stop it? Or did you not have enough power to control something as strong as a tornado?
Just thought I'd ask, with my rare chance to speak with the Almighty Lord.
Sure, I'd love to talk with you about these things. My email address is david@dogmadebate.com. I look forward to hearing from you.
i agree with u on #11
I agree with you 100%. I respect all religions due to the fact that they were created to help people. I have a lot of Christian, Jewish, and even a few Muslim friends. They were created to teach people how to act. Like the 10 commandments, the first 5 tell you how to live a Christian life, the last 5 protect people and its just teaches you how to be a "Good Samaritan". The main reason I am a atheist is because I dont want some God sitting on a throne to decide my fate. I want to be my own person and sculpt my own future and fate. If that means I burn a pit of lava for eternity, so be it.
*I am 13 and in 8th grade*
- Alex
How can an atheist (if there is such a thing) argue a point he has never experienced himself? In arguing, the atheist is begging someone to prove him wrong beyond the shadow of a doubt, which may be impossible, UNLESS he accepts God first. Of which may never happen unless God chooses him. I can tell an atheist about God till I am blue in the face, but without experiencing God, the atheist is ignorant of the subject. He is the one WITHOUT the knowledge, not the one who has experienced God. I have experienced God for many years. I have also experienced not knowing God. Therefore, I can speak as an atheist, and someone that knows God. The atheist is born with the knowledge that God exists, but as the atheist grows older, they have a hard time believing in a power that is way more than his tiny mind can reason. It is exactly what God says is evil from the beginning. And NO, God did not create imperfect humans. They became that way when evil entered man, in the form of, like atheists, wanting to believe that they are god, and nothing is above them. NO, God did not create evil, Evil is what is left, when you remove God from the equation. No where does God say that He created darkness, He just created light. Darkness is just what is left when light is taken out of the equation. That is why God says he is light. Get it? Now, atheists have NO argument with me about this, without showing their ignorance of the subject!
How can an atheist (if there is such a thing) argue a point he has never experienced himself? In arguing, the atheist is begging someone to prove him wrong beyond the shadow of a doubt, which may be impossible, UNLESS he accepts God first. Of which may never happen unless God chooses him. I can tell an atheist about God till I am blue in the face, but without experiencing God, the atheist is ignorant of the subject. He is the one WITHOUT the knowledge, not the one who has experienced God. I have experienced God for many years. I have also experienced not knowing God. Therefore, I can speak as an atheist, and someone that knows God. The atheist is born with the knowledge that God exists, but as the atheist grows older, they have a hard time believing in a power that is way more than his tiny mind can reason. It is exactly what God says is evil from the beginning. And NO, God did not create imperfect humans. They became that way when evil entered man, in the form of, like atheists, wanting to believe that they are god, and nothing is above them. NO, God did not create evil, Evil is what is left, when you remove God from the equation. No where does God say that He created darkness, He just created light. Darkness is just what is left when light is taken out of the equation. That is why God says he is light. Get it? Now, atheists have NO argument with me about this, without showing their ignorance of the subject!
@Anon - Of course you posted this anonymously. I would be ashamed to put my name to it as well. Let's see:
"How can an atheist (if there is such a thing)..."
Oh, there is DEFINITELY such a thing. In case you weren't aware, an atheist is a person that doesn't buy into your delusional superstition.
"... argue a point he has never experienced himself?"
Oh, so many atheists were first indoctrinated into you superstition. Many, many, many have "experienced" your delusion first hand, but managed to think their way out of it.
"In arguing, the atheist is begging someone to prove him wrong..."
No, the atheist is begging to be left alone. Big difference.
"...without experiencing God, the atheist is ignorant of the subject."
Again, many atheists HAVE "experienced" the delusion of your superstition.
"...He is the one WITHOUT the knowledge"
You are clearly confusing "knowledge" with "wishful thinking".
"...I have also experienced not knowing God. Therefore, I can speak as an atheist,"
I VERY much doubt that. You may have struggled with your delusion, but I doubt that, at any time, you have truly understood what it means to be free of your delusion.
The atheist is born with the knowledge that God exists,"
This goes to show your delusion. First, you have no evidence of this, so it is just a supposition and speculation on your part. Second, if a person is born "knowing" god, how can there be so many different religions. Third, if a person is born "knowing" god, how can entire communities that have not been exposed to your delusion be atheistic for uncounted generations. There is SO much evidence to prove this statement to be a flat out lie.
"And NO, God did not create imperfect humans."
How could a "perfect" human become corrupt? This statement is a non sequitur and nonsensical.
"...like atheists, wanting to believe that they are god,
Sorry, the lack of belief in a fairy tale does not make people think they are "gods".
"NO, God did not create evil,"
Xians have, time and again, told me that they believe that god created EVERYTHING. Now you're back peddling on that. Right.
"Darkness is just what is left when light is taken out of the equation."
I can't even imagine how your mind bounces between physics and the meta-spiritual. WOW!
"Now, atheists have NO argument with me about this, without showing their ignorance of the subject!"
Well, maybe their ignorance of your particular take on a delusional fairy tale. Personally, I am SO thankful that I don't understand where your mind goes. If I did, I'd have to go get therapy! :)
Being no expert on the matter I will simply give you my understanding of what an atheist believes in and what a typical believer of a source higher than themselves, the latter believes that something who is more complex and powerful than himself, for example when your parent raised you, you see them as the one who created you and therefore more powerful. A being who is eternal has no need for a beginning or an end which is something beyond the grasp of mortal minds because all they can recognise is a temporary existence, until they continue their respective journeys through whatever religious pretense they follow. Whereas the former believes that there was originally nothing and nothing happened to anything. Then, nothing magically exploded for no reason and the substances created just magically turned into self replicating bits that then went on to become dinosaurs, now let me ask you who said the idea of a god just doesn't make sense, does that sound in any way logical to you? I am sorry if my evaluation of your belief system seems hostile but that is the way that I see it.
I can't believe how incredibly selfish you are, I don't know who your father is but i do know without him you couldn't even breathe
Hi Anon. Well, we certainly agree on one thing: you are no expert. Let me try to sum up what you posted: since you don't understand the basics of physics, then your fairy tale *must, by default* be true. You claim that we "believe" (based on actual evidence) that everything just "magically" appeared, as opposed to *your* belief (completely unfounded) that some mystical fairy made everything appear by magic. But that makes more sense, since your fairy was the one that performed the magic. I don't really see your (what we laughingly refer to as) "evaluation" as hostile, I just see it as being delusional. To "proclaim" that your superstition *must* be correct is the same old tired argument that xians use all the time: it is the "god of the gaps" argument. If there is any doubt, no matter how slim, in any scientific theory, then xians think they can jam their delusional superstition into the crack and try to force it apart, but it never works because your claim of "we don't know, so I must be right" just simply doesn't hold any water.
Dear David and everyone else who has posted on here. (Even those contradicting atheism)Thank you! I have learned soo much from all of you. I haven't finished going through all these posts yet(There's a lot of them)but I just felt like I needed to say thanks here ASAP. I think this might have been kind of went over before but I have one question. For the new religions, what happens to all the people who passed on before the religion was established? Much appreciated if someone could clear this up for me.
I also want to briefly introduce myself here because throughout the past year I've struggled to find those with the same opinion as me about atheism; A 16 year old male in Smalltown U.S.A. And when I try to explain my opinion I usually get the whole "shpeel" like someone mentioned above and get looked down on for my beliefs. I agree and hope that if there turns out to be a true god out of the thousands I think he would judge me on my character, humanity and how I tried to treat everyone nicely and improve this Earth that I live on. Not on my knowledge of there religion or whether I was a member or not. Leaving me out under a circumstance like that would seem like a very un-godly type thing to do.
So, that's all for know. I'll continue reading and thank you all for teaching me all this about religion and history that I had previously never known.
Shawn
Equality&Learning
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
@Anon - "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."
Yes, exactly. This is exactly what religion is. People turning away from proven truth to listen only to things that they wish were true. Please want so badly for there to be some mystical all-powerful overseer that will punish the "bad" and reward the "good", but none of the evidence supports that. "Bad" people "win" all the time. People want what they consider "justice", so they make up some super-fairy that will eventually dole it out. And in order to make it even half way believable (at least to the gullible mind), they time this "justice" after people are dead. That way they don't have to face the fact that it is nothing but delusional fairy tales.
@Shawn - Welcome to the conversation. I’m glad you are looking for answers in reason, rather than just taking people’s word for things. I have a couple of suggestions that it sounds like you are already following, but they are good to put into words.
First, when listening to (or reading) 2 sides of a debate, pay attention to the basis of the argument. There are a lot of very charismatic people out there that can spin a really golden strand of bullshit. But their argument is often founded on a house of cards. Xians tend to start an argument in the middle, with the assumption that god exists, or that the bible is wholly true. We know for a fact that it is not. As you might have noticed, the last person to post just threw a bible quote out there as if it actually means anything. Well, it does, as you saw from my response, but it was certainly not what he meant to convey. He’s assumption that, because it comes from the bible, it must support his delusional superstition kinda backfired. But, there are a lot of things outside of religion that works the same way. Human causation of global climate change, is another example. People claim that there is a correlation between CO2 and global temperatures. This is true, except that, if you look at the historical records, CO2 levels actually follow global temp changes, they don’t lead them. But, again, you have to actually not allow assumptions to go unchallenged. People (especially politicians and clergy) will twist data to make it sound like it supports their position, when actually it disproves their position.
Which leads to the second suggestion: don’t let people drive the conversation off track. A lot of times, when people are losing the debate, they will try to derail the conversation and get onto another subject. Sometimes they are very blatant about it, sometimes they are pretty subtle. But when you see a sudden change in the conversation, you know that the person that’s doing it knows they are in trouble.
Third, never trust anyone who can’t admit that they have made a mistake. Sometimes people will respond to something either without thinking the position through or say something in a way that they didn’t intend it to come out. When someone else corrects them, if they admit that they meant it a different way, or especially of they actually admit that they were wrong about some fact that they quoted, you can trust that they are open minded and actually care about truth. If they will not capitulate on ANY point, you can be pretty assured that they are closed minded and refuse to re-evaluate anything that they believe, even in light of evidence that actually disproves what they are asserting, you can be pretty sure that they are someone not really be trusted.
Good luck in your endeavors, and remember, keep an open mind, but always follow the evidence.
And I don't feel Jesus love, which is how I know he's not real. I don't believe things based on faith, I need evidence before I believe, and how you "feel" isn't evidence. And I'm sure you have better things to do than pray for me, so I'd prefer if you didn't.
Sweetie, you still need to get help with abuse. Really. No one is questioning your dealing with it up to this point, but you must seek help from someone who, like you, wanted to help so got a psychology degree. Really, honey. PLEASE do this. PLEASE!
I don't recall the laws of thermodynamics being applied to love. In what way do the second and third laws apply to love?
Matt,dont be an idiot Santa now exists in almost every culture in the world does that make him real,Dinosaurs did exist,there's proof but Dragons man,c'mon dude,every fable and urban myth have some sort of truth to it and most of the times the truth involves lying or exaggeration...think its not as painful as you think
For all Christians, I have one question.
If Jesus cannot lie, how does that make him human? It clearly states 3 times in the bible he does not. All humans lie.
Dear any one,
I am an atheist in the bible belt (Missouri) and I told some people at my school that I was and they stopped hanging out with me and some even called me the devil. A little after this happened I got so tired of it that I 'converted'
to being a baptist. But I'm really not. I just go to church and the bible studies like everyone else but I don't voice my atheist views any more and even join in the mocking of other atheists the others have heard of.
My question what should I do, I don't want to lose all my friends and possibly lose scholarships to college because of my beliefs but I also don't want to be a liar to the people in my town.
Any one got any thoughts, help needed!?!?
-William
Hi William. Thanks for stopping by. First, I would like to say I understand that it's not easy to be the only rational person in a sea of delusion. As to what you are going through, I think it really boils down to 'you gotta do what you gotta do'. Here are a couple of things to consider, though:
Are "friends" that will only be friends with you if you conform to their superstition *really* friends? Personally, I have had few people in my life that I consider to be true friends, but we accept each other for who we are and I wouldn't have it any other way. I refuse to put on a facade just to placate other people. One of my best friends (who I consider an adopted brother) is a mormon and another is a fundie, both of which are clear on my position about religion. I couldn’t be friends with someone who is so superficial and self-involved that they would reject me for not buying into their beliefs. Even though it seems like these people are your world now, I certainly wouldn’t worry about keeping these people as friends after school. Keep in mind that once to move to college, you will be involved with a whole new group of people, so just consider that you need to finish school and then you can “escape”. :-)
I noticed that you said you play along with ridiculing other non-believers. Why not pursue those people as friends? You obviously have at least that much in common with them.
I'm curious as to how you will lose out on scholarships because of non-beliefs. I would suggest that if you took the time you waste in bible study and apply those to valid educational studies, you'll probably be more apt to get a scholarship. Granted, you won't qualify for grants from religious institutions, but you'll be lying on the app whether you pretend to be religious or not, so I'm not sure what difference that makes.
Look, I’m 50 years old. If there is one thing I’ve learned in all these years, and especially since I gave up religion is that, when all is said and done, all we have is our integrity.
I think it’s great that you are reaching out to the atheist community for support. And I’m not saying you have to, or even should, wear your non-belief on your shirtsleeve and announce it to the world everywhere you go (like some of us tend to do – lol). That takes a lot of courage and isn’t for everyone. But pretending to be something you aren’t isn’t really the best path to self confidence. Why does anyone else need to know where you stand on any given subject? I suggest that you pretend as if it doesn’t exist. If someone wants to drag you into a conversation about religion, treat it as an opportunity to practice diverting a conversation to a more appropriate subject. I actually have another close friend that I work with (I actually got him the job) who is also a fundie and we walk for about an hour together each day. We talk about a lot of stuff, but religion is just not one of them. It’s not that hard to just not talk about religion.
I wish you the best of luck with school, friends and all your endeavors. You are obviously welcome here any time, and if you'd care to listen to my advise, I'm more than happy to discuss any other things you'd like.
Remember, life is short, so have fun in all that you do! :)
William, please email me: david@dogmadebate.com. I'd love help you work through this.
Hi it's william again. The way that I would lose scholarships is the people who decide who gets the scholarships (not necesarilly big ones) but small ones like from the veterans or lions club or other town oriented scholarships. Any way what I meant when I said in ridiculing other non-believers was when someone in bible study brought up an atheist that they knew or had heard about they would make stupid jokes and I would join in. Things have developed since my last post.
I have discovered my dad is an atheist and actually supports me but when I told my mom she didn't believe me for a while and then she told me not to tell people.
Help still required and hoping that I will find some kind of solution to this incredible conundrum.
hoping for a response (crosses fingers)
-William
@William - I see. Ya, I was a little confused and concerned about the "ridicule" comment, but now I see what you mean and I completely understand. I was raised in a part of Oregon that is very racist and had a hard time dealing with it, as you are having with the "belief" issue, so I really sympathize with your situation. I'm a bit ashamed to say that it took me a while before I was really able to stand up to people who made racist comments (although, my only excuse is that I didn't have something like the internet as a support system, nor did I have non-racist parents, so it was, I think, a lot harder for me to break out of that environment).
As for the scholarship issue, I would have to say my original comments are still applicable. Either you lie about your belief or you don't, it's pretty much up to you. Personally, I would prefer to (and did) pay my own way rather than pretend to be something I'm not. I think there are other sources for scholarships that you'd be just as qualified for, it will just take a bit more looking. But, either way, it's up to you, since you are the one that will have to live with the decision. I know that's not much of a help, but one thing to think about is that strength of character comes from within. No one else is going to carry that burden, either way. Perhaps that is one of the big differences between theists and non-theists: they have the option of laying their guilt at the feet of an imaginary friend, whereas we are forced to look at ourselves in the mirror every morning and take personal responsibility for our own actions. On the other hand, that is also our advantage, since we must take responsibility for our immoral actions, but we also get to take full credit for our achievements.
@William - One other thing: congrats on finding out that you have the support of your father! I didn't have a father growing up, so that is really great for you.
Also, I do hope that hearing about other people getting through these things helps. What are your plans for the future? What grade are you in now? What college do you anticipate attending? I'd like to hear about what you've got planned out. And I do hope everything works out well for you. it sounds like you really do have a good head on your shoulders. A lot of people either don't think of searching out support or are too egotistical to do so, so I think you are showing what a level head you've got by seeking out help in dealing with these issues. Kudos to you! :)
Hello and to answer your questions, I plan on going to longview up north and getting a degree in Criminology and psychology and then going on to law enforcement. I am a sophomore right now as well.
P.S. Saw my dad tell off some jehovas witnesses that came to our door.(so cool)
P.P.S. This site is really helping me out thanks for the support and also are there such things as atheit related scholarships???
I've had 2 JWs and 2 mormons show up at my house on 2 different occasions. The JWs came in and sat down and within about 1/2 hr, were running for the hills. The mormons stood at my door step and argued with me for about 15 minutes, but after I referred to their religion as fairy tales" for about the 5th time, they decided it was time to go, too. My wife put up a "No Soliciting" sign (because she likes to spoil my fun. Or maybe she's afraid we'll end up with a burning cross in our yard one of these mornings. LOL)
I don't know if there are "atheist" specific scholarships, but there are certainly non-theist-based scholarships. My point is that you don't need to just look at "religion-based" scholarships for colleges. And, who knows, maybe there are some atheist-based scholarships. It's worth looking into, since our movement is really starting to catch on. Maybe David would have more info about that? - David?
You are quite right with some of these things.
But I would like to enlighten you a bit.
Christianity does INDEED support the Big Bang Theory, AND evolution.
Isn't it said that the universe is expanding every second? Well, if it's expanding as we go forwards in time, what does that mean if you go backward in time?
As you go back in time, the universe contracts.
So, the Big Bang Theory says that the universe just "poof" appeared. Which I believe. But, my question for you is...what made that explosion happen?
Imagine what it was like before the universe began. Oh that's right, you can't. Because there was NOTHING. And, my question is, how do you get millions of planets and galaxies and possibly even other millions of universes out of utter NOTHING? That's correct, you can't.
Unless there is a supreme being who made it happen.
I'm 15 by the way, and just an ordinary Christian teenager. Not a scientist, or college major.
Anonymous 15,
First, let me say that I'm glad you're thinking about these things at such a young age. I was about your age when I first started asking questions, as well. I have high hopes for you.
In fact, I remember asking this very same question.
I've spent the last 15 years researching Christianity; I published a book on Christian doctrines when you were 12, and I've had my own religious debate podcast since you were 10.
So, you're not really enlightening me much. But nonetheless, I appreciate the debate. So let me share this with you...
Here's what I learned throughout my journey that made me realize my thinking on this topic was wrong:
1) The Big Bang wasn't an explosion, but rather a gradual expansion of compacted matter that is still expanding today. It's extremely complicated and we still don't fully understand it, and that's ok. Science is always working towards the truth, but religion assumes all the answers are magic, and gives up on knowledge.
2) Simply because atheists can't tell you EXACTLY what caused the first levels of expansion, it doesn't mean the Christian version of 'God' is the correct one. You still need to battle the Hindus, Norse gods, Muslims, Wiccans, Native Americans, Ancient Greeks, Alien Worshipers, & Mayans for that right.
3) The Bible clearly states the earth was created about 6,000 - 10,000 years go by the spoken word of 'God.' Evolutionists have fossils that are millions of years old, and the universe was around for about 9-10 billion years before the earth was formed. Therefore, Christianity does not support geological evolution.
4) The Bible clearly states that the Christian god created each animal and brought them to Adam for him to name them. Our fossil record indicates that most of the species that lived did not live at the same time, and many, were in fact, millions of years apart. Therefore, Christianity does not support biological evolution.
5) The Bible clearly states that the Christian god created man from dust. Yet we have clear evidence of the hominids from which we evolved. Therefore, Christianity does not support the evolution of man.
My audiobook is actually free right now on audible.com. It would be a great place for you to start if you're interested in gaining knowledge on this topic.
Thanks again for stopping by.
@everyone
Wow, finally finished reading all 755 posts. Took several days (I read slow). I am very grateful David took the initiative to create this forum of open thought and free expression. I have learned a lot of new information from reading all the posts, especially Dimondwoof, David Smalley, Alex, and Rosemary.
I am a 31 year old atheist that was indoctrinated from day one. Church (WELS Lutheran) every sunday (before I even developed a memory). Christian grade school from kindergarten to 8th grade.
I've always been skeptical of my religion from a very early age. The primary problem I've always had with xianity was the contradiction of god promoting the Golden Rule (treating people the same way you want to be treated) (btw best rule eveeeer) and god stating absolutely your salvation is not based on your behavior but on accepting words on blind faith. It breeds minds that don't feel personal responsibility is the greatest virtue. Blind faith instead is the most admirable virtue. I took my faith very seriously up until around my mid 20s when the constant torrent of reason and logic finally eroded the last remnants of insulation I had around my mind. Fortunately for me, my family keeps their self-righteous and delusional judgements to themselves for the most part. Whenever my mom spots a chance to reiterate her delusions I politely disagree, offer her food for thought, and change the subject. She never persists past the first attempt. My parent's feelings toward me are pretty ironic. They believe that their god offers everyone ''unconditional'' love (even though blind faith in Jesus is a blatant condition) only they are the ones that are actually exhibiting unconditional love for me in doing their own special mental gymnastics to justify loving me and treating me with actual love and respect despite what their god technically orders them to do. Even if every member of my blood family disowned me and wouldn't talk to me, I would adapt. My true family are those people that genuinely care about how I feel and what happens to me. Blood doesn't strictly determine my emotional and logical connections to other humans.
@Alex
Dude, it gives me very pleasant feelings of hope reading what you have to say. People that believe age discounts knowledge (matt and emilio) are profoundly wrong. At 15, you have a firmer grasp on reality than anyone of any age that believes in the supernatural. If I were your father I would be very proud of you. Well, I'm still proud of your mentality regardless.
@Dimondwoof
You should be a host on the Atheist Experience. You are one of the most rational, articulate people I have been exposed to and learned from. Thank you for all the information you have presented. I always knew that no one chooses their sexual orientation but I was unaware of the actual biology of it. It makes sense.
@David Smalley
I'm really glad I stumbled upon your website while watching your guest appearance on the Atheist Experience. You and Matt Dillahunty were a great combo. I've been working my way through the blogs and this one is my favorite so far. Especially the back and forth between matt/emilio and Dimondwoof/Alex/You. Great refutation abilities. Helps me build upon my own.
@everyone
Funny that matt comes here, gets stumped, gets angry, then claims it ''strengthens'' his faith, but isn't he just flossing his ego? What actually happens is matt helps unstrengthen other peoples' faith who aren't as zealous as him. So thank you matt for unintentionally helping the free-thinking movement by pushing people away from their own superstitions. Also to matt about claiming that animals don't have morals naturally unless trained by humans. What about dogs that instinctually save their owner or even a complete stranger from death or serious harm? Dogs are instinctually intelligent enough to recognize a life threatening situation and have the bravery to risk their own well-being for another organism's benefit. If that is not natural moral behavior I don't know what is then. Another point about canine behavior is how naturally intuitive they are. I think scent and body language are what their brains process the best, relative to their other senses. So they have an acute ability to read our moods. This ability to read our moods is not my point but how they behave in response to that stimulus. They clearly exhibit sympathy/empathy for the person and actively try to change their mood to more positive feelings. They for example will give you kisses and look at you with a concerned expression on their face or maybe do something cute to make you laugh or smile. It's the same with many animals. Elephants show sorrow for other dead elephants. My point is morals are very natural and intrinsic so it's very arrogant and delusional to say they can only possibly come from supernatural forces. Society is a force, but it's natural. All social organisms need moral systems in order for cooperation to exist.
A thought on being objective:
Everyone gets their reason and logic centers clouded with emotion. The scientific method of illuminating natural truths is the embodiment of objectivity. People that have posted here with very subjective worldviews are the ones that had very emotionally charged arguments. The great thing about alternate perspectives from other people is they help keep emotion from muddying our logical processes. Our objectively fair processes.
Live for yourself, live to make others as happy and fulfilled as you are. Time is the most precious thing we have, not fantasies.
Think for yourself. It will improve the world, not destroy it.
P.S. After I composed this but before I posted it I was watching an Eddie Murphy movie called, 'Coming to America'. There is a comically enthusiastic preacher played by Arsenio Hall and while talking to some people he
said, ''...and if lovin the lord is wrong, I don't wana be right!''
It's about 1hr 4min into the movie if you want to see it yourself, he says it pretty amusingly.
I only mention it because that summarizes the mentality of many ''religiots''. (praise ye for that addition to my vocabulary, Dimondwoof)
Thanks for your time.
I'm so glad my mum didn't press Religion on me too heavily...I went to church a few times..she'd probably call me Catholic, but I have never believed in Religion..even when I was little wittle. This whole issue is impossible..just a big double standard.
It makes me laugh when people quote the Bible as proof of God...it's a book. Bee oh oh cay. Book. Harry Potter could be Jesus to people 6000 years from now. I believe Religion is a man-made invention to control the masses with fear of Hell and sin.
God's personality kind of makes me think of someone pushing another off a cliff, then quickly grabbing them and saying "You should be thanking me for saving you!"
I'm not quite sure if I'm agnostic or atheist..I'll believe in a God when there's proof...and I mean PROOOF...not "feel Him in your heart" or any of that mumbo jumbo.
I'm only 18; so I got my whole life to sort shiz out.
@15 YO Teenage xian who won't leave your name - Let me give you a little lesson in critical, logical, as well as scientific thinking: If you ask a question where the other person doesn't have an answer, your answer is not "automatically" correct. Your answer still needs to have some sort of evidence to back it up. Just because we don't know something (for instance, what existed before the Big Bang), does not give you cart-blanch to make up any crazy fairy tale to fill in our lack of knowledge. That you are trying to enforce is called the "God of the Gaps". Your argument can be said for the argument for a flat earth, for the earth being the center of the solar system (and universe), and any number of things that man didn't know (so was explained as "god did it) until we did know (pushing "god" farther and farther into the realm of fantasy).
As to your specific issue, if we were to assume that you are correct, even if some sort of “entity” did ignite the BB, how is that evidence in any way proof that *your* particular fairy god father was the one that did it? There are dozens of creation myths out there. Why couldn’t one of those be true and yours be just a figment of some goat herder’s imagination? Basic evidence shows that your particular delusion can’t possibly be true, so if we are assuming that something “caused” the universe to appear out of nowhere, it must be some other myth.
However, it makes no sense to capitulate to that assumption. There is and never has been any evidence supporting the assumption that there was any “intelligence” behind the creation of the universe. Personally, I adhere to M-theory, which purposes that there are membranes of existence and the “big bang” was actually just an instance where two of these “branes” bumped into each other and our universe is just the result. There is not currently enough evidence to promote this idea to a true Scientific Theory, but on the other hand, there is no evidence to disprove it, either.
Your problem is that you are assuming faith equates to knowledge. You assume that if someone can’t explain something that your imagination must be taken as gospel (pun intended). You assume that you know what “nothing” really means. What you are truly saying is that, at 15 years old, that you are smarter and know more about how the universe works than all the quantum physicists in the world. That is awfully presumptuous for someone at the ripe young age.
@Jacob W. - Thanks for your comments. I know I have allowed myself to be pushed to irrationality once in a while, but I do strive to remain rational, reasonable and logical. I appreciate. :)
Mr. Smalley,
I hope that all is well with you these days. I've not heard of you until listening to a radio debate from 2010 between you and Host Barry Creamer and guest Dr. Joe Wooddell where they discuss the fourth interview with you. I came to your site to see what your beliefs are and why you are an Atheist. Yes, I know you haven't hear of me either.
I am a Christian and my name is Jeffrey Conner. I just wanted to share my experience with you. I'm not trying to condemn, change you or give you a hard time. I'm not a wordsmith as you or as well read.
My experience in 1976 on day at work. Before that day, I was a person who believed my word was my bond. I tried to keep my word no matter the cost, to help other people in need, stop to help people whose cars were broke down on the side of the road etc… At work my language was not the best and I would swear like everyone else did. I was raised as a Baptist and made a profession of faith at 7. I really didn't feel any different as I remember. I went to church on Sundays and Wednesdays. On that day September 15, 1976 started just like any other day at work. About an hour or two before my shift ended I had this strange feeling of fear come over me. I was thinking I was going to die and go to hell. As time went on this feeling got worse and worse to where I was literally shaking. I thought I was a "born Again" Christian and couldn't understand why this was happening to me and why I was doubting my salvation.
Finally I was off work and went directly to speak to my Pastor at church. I talked to him for awhile and confessed I was a sinner not really living right by the scriptures
or following God and reading my bible like I should. I felt better after that like a load was lifted off of my shoulders.
The next day I went to work like usual but everything was different. I couldn't stand hearing people swearing especially using God's name when swearing. I had a whole new outlook on life. There were a couple of guys who read their bibles at lunch time, so I went and talked to them and told them of my experience. It was then I realized that I actually was "Born Again" They suggested I start reading my bible and I couldn't put it down. It was like a whole new experience for me and I couldn't believe how well I understood the KJV Bible and how interesting it was to read. Each verse I read spoke to me and I learned so much and gained such insight from God's word.
I went into all this detail to give you an idea of my experience. I have to say God is real. I know you didn't find proof in all your studies and searching for God. You probably have forgotten more about all the religions in the world than I will ever know, but you never found God. If you had, you would know yourself he is real. I will never be convinced that God is not real because I've experienced him and seen countless times, proof of his existence. You can't explain the change in my life in any other way. I found peace in my life that day. I don't have to search for it any longer. Maybe someday you will to.
Kind regards,
Jeffrey Conner
Wow David, You have really helped me with my beliefs, i have been looking into atheism because i have always felt it was the truth but i have never really found something or someone to base this on and you have helped me tons i love listening to every body on the show, and just that you allow them to say what they want, and you respond respectfully and intelligently. again thanks ill be listening.
, John
So you are saying that people believe in god without questioning, just blind faith?? Yes it's true. But it's blind faith we're practicing in all the aspects of our lives, not just religion! For example we believe that what we see with our eyes is true, we trust our senses too much, while science states that we see a false image of the world since we are three dimensional creatures and the world is four dimensional, or something else. This is why a two dimensional creature couldn't see you the way you see yourself, or perhaps not see you at all. Just take a look around you and try to get it. What you see does not respond to how the world really is. I find it hard to believe there's a god, but also i can't get off my mind the idea there could be a superior being of infinite multi dimensions and we thing he belongs to the sphere of the imaginary just because we can't perceive him as limited three dimensional beings. This is just a thought and i may be totally wrong. Of course i don't believe in what church says. For me the possibilities of the existence or non-existence of god are 50%-50%, and i can neither accept nor reject any of them. I think christians are being too absolute with their opinions and you're being with yours. Since what i see does not respond to reality and my senses are just feelings my brain creates then i'm not sure about anything and i can;t believe in anything. I guess i'll never know the truth and that's making me furious. Please don't hurry to say i'm naive and uneducated, the above are just thoughts of mine and they could be totally wrong. I'm a student with ambitions of becoming a scientist. And excuse my bad english, it's not my mother tongue.
So you are saying that people believe in god without questioning, just blind faith?? Yes it's true. But it's blind faith we're practicing in all the aspects of our lives, not just religion! For example we believe that what we see with our eyes is true, we trust our senses too much, while science states that we see a false image of the world since we are three dimensional creatures and the world is four dimensional, or something else. This is why a two dimensional creature couldn't see you the way you see yourself, or perhaps not see you at all. Just take a look around you and try to get it. What you see does not respond to how the world really is. I find it hard to believe there's a god, but also i can't get off my mind the idea there could be a superior being of infinite multi dimensions and we thing he belongs to the sphere of the imaginary just because we can't perceive him as limited three dimensional beings. This is just a thought and i may be totally wrong. Of course i don't believe in what church says. For me the possibilities of the existence or non-existence of god are 50%-50%, and i can neither accept nor reject any of them. I think christians are being too absolute with their opinions and you're being with yours. Since what i see does not respond to reality and my senses are just feelings my brain creates then i'm not sure about anything and i can;t believe in anything. I guess i'll never know the truth and that's making me furious. Please don't hurry to say i'm naive and uneducated, the above are just thoughts of mine and they could be totally wrong. I'm a student with ambitions of becoming a scientist. And excuse my bad english, it's not my mother tongue.
So you are saying that people believe in god without questioning, just blind faith?? Yes it's true. But it's blind faith we're practicing in all the aspects of our lives, not just religion! For example we believe that what we see with our eyes is true, we trust our senses too much, while science states that we see a false image of the world since we are three dimensional creatures and the world is four dimensional, or something else. This is why a two dimensional creature couldn't see you the way you see yourself, or perhaps not see you at all. Just take a look around you and try to get it. What you see does not respond to how the world really is. I find it hard to believe there's a god, but also i can't get off my mind the idea there could be a superior being of infinite multi dimensions and we thing he belongs to the sphere of the imaginary just because we can't perceive him as limited three dimensional beings. This is just a thought and i may be totally wrong. Of course i don't believe in what church says. For me the possibilities of the existence or non-existence of god are 50%-50%, and i can neither accept nor reject any of them. I think christians are being too absolute with their opinions and you're being with yours. Since what i see does not respond to reality and my senses are just feelings my brain creates then i'm not sure about anything and i can;t believe in anything. I guess i'll never know the truth and that's making me furious. Please don't hurry to say i'm naive and uneducated, the above are just thoughts of mine and they could be totally wrong. I'm a student with ambitions of becoming a scientist. And excuse my bad english, it's not my mother tongue.
So you are saying that people believe in god without questioning, just blind faith?? Yes it's true. But it's blind faith we're practicing in all the aspects of our lives, not just religion! For example we believe that what we see with our eyes is true, we trust our senses too much, while science states that we see a false image of the world since we are three dimensional creatures and the world is four dimensional, or something else. This is why a two dimensional creature couldn't see you the way you see yourself, or perhaps not see you at all. Just take a look around you and try to get it. What you see does not respond to how the world really is. I find it hard to believe there's a god, but also i can't get off my mind the idea there could be a superior being of infinite multi dimensions and we thing he belongs to the sphere of the imaginary just because we can't perceive him as limited three dimensional beings. This is just a thought and i may be totally wrong. Of course i don't believe in what church says. For me the possibilities of the existence or non-existence of god are 50%-50%, and i can neither accept nor reject any of them. I think christians are being too absolute with their opinions and you're being with yours. Since what i see does not respond to reality and my senses are just feelings my brain creates then i'm not sure about anything and i can;t believe in anything. I guess i'll never know the truth and that's making me furious. Please don't hurry to say i'm naive and uneducated, the above are just thoughts of mine and they could be totally wrong. I'm a student with ambitions of becoming a scientist. And excuse my bad english, it's not my mother tongue.
So you are saying that people believe in god without questioning, just blind faith?? Yes it's true. But it's blind faith we're practicing in all the aspects of our lives, not just religion! For example we believe that what we see with our eyes is true, we trust our senses too much, while science states that we see a false image of the world since we are three dimensional creatures and the world is four dimensional, or something else. This is why a two dimensional creature couldn't see you the way you see yourself, or perhaps not see you at all. Just take a look around you and try to get it. What you see does not respond to how the world really is. I find it hard to believe there's a god, but also i can't get off my mind the idea there could be a superior being of infinite multi dimensions and we thing he belongs to the sphere of the imaginary just because we can't perceive him as limited three dimensional beings. This is just a thought and i may be totally wrong. Of course i don't believe in what church says. For me the possibilities of the existence or non-existence of god are 50%-50%, and i can neither accept nor reject any of them. I think christians are being too absolute with their opinions and you're being with yours. Since what i see does not respond to reality and my senses are just feelings my brain creates then i'm not sure about anything and i can't believe in anything. I guess i'll never know the truth and that's making me furious. Please don't hurry to say i'm naive and uneducated, the above are just thoughts of mine and they could be totally wrong. I'm a student with ambitions of becoming a scientist. And excuse my bad english, it's not my mother tongue.
So you are saying that people believe in god without questioning, just blind faith?? Yes it's true. But it's blind faith we're practicing in all the aspects of our lives, not just religion! For example we believe that what we see with our eyes is true, we trust our senses too much, while science states that we see a false image of the world since we are three dimensional creatures and the world is four dimensional, or something else. This is why a two dimensional creature couldn't see you the way you see yourself, or perhaps not see you at all. Just take a look around you and try to get it. What you see does not respond to how the world really is. I find it hard to believe there's a god, but also i can't get off my mind the idea there could be a superior being of infinite multi dimensions and we thing he belongs to the sphere of the imaginary just because we can't perceive him as limited three dimensional beings. This is just a thought and i may be totally wrong. Of course i don't believe in what church says. For me the possibilities of the existence or non-existence of god are 50%-50%, and i can neither accept nor reject any of them. I think christians are being too absolute with their opinions and you're being with yours. Since what i see does not respond to reality and my senses are just feelings my brain creates then i'm not sure about anything and i can't believe in anything. I guess i'll never know the truth and that's making me furious. Please don't hurry to say i'm naive and uneducated, the above are just thoughts of mine and they could be totally wrong. I'm a student with ambitions of becoming a scientist. And excuse my bad english, it's not my mother tongue.
So you are saying that people believe in god without questioning, just blind faith?? Yes it's true. But it's blind faith we're practicing in all the aspects of our lives, not just religion! For example we believe that what we see with our eyes is true, we trust our senses too much, while science states that we see a false image of the world since we are three dimensional creatures and the world is four dimensional, or something else. This is why a two dimensional creature couldn't see you the way you see yourself, or perhaps not see you at all. Just take a look around you and try to get it. What you see does not respond to how the world really is. I find it hard to believe there's a god, but also i can't get off my mind the idea there could be a superior being of infinite multi dimensions and we thing he belongs to the sphere of the imaginary just because we can't perceive him as limited three dimensional beings. This is just a thought and i may be totally wrong. Of course i don't believe in what church says. For me the possibilities of the existence or non-existence of god are 50%-50%, and i can neither accept nor reject any of them. I think christians are being too absolute with their opinions and you're being with yours. Since what i see does not respond to reality and my senses are just feelings my brain creates then i'm not sure about anything and i can't believe in anything. I guess i'll never know the truth and that's making me furious. Please don't hurry to say i'm naive and uneducated, the above are just thoughts of mine and they could be totally wrong. I'm a student with ambitions of becoming a scientist. And excuse my bad english, it's not my mother tongue.
So you are saying that people believe in god without questioning, just blind faith?? Yes it's true. But it's blind faith we're practicing in all the aspects of our lives, not just religion! For example we believe that what we see with our eyes is true, we trust our senses too much, while science states that we see a false image of the world since we are three dimensional creatures and the world is four dimensional, or something else. This is why a two dimensional creature couldn't see you the way you see yourself, or perhaps not see you at all. Just take a look around you and try to get it. What you see does not respond to how the world really is. I find it hard to believe there's a god, but also i can't get off my mind the idea there could be a superior being of infinite multi dimensions and we thing he belongs to the sphere of the imaginary just because we can't perceive him as limited three dimensional beings. This is just a thought and i may be totally wrong. Of course i don't believe in what church says. For me the possibilities of the existence or non-existence of god are 50%-50%, and i can neither accept nor reject any of them. I think christians are being too absolute with their opinions and you're being with yours. Since what i see does not respond to reality and my senses are just feelings my brain creates then i'm not sure about anything and i can't believe in anything. I guess i'll never know the truth and that's making me furious. Please don't hurry to say i'm naive and uneducated, the above are just thoughts of mine and they could be totally wrong. I'm a student with ambitions of becoming a scientist. And excuse my bad english, it's not my mother tongue.
damn why is it so difficult to post a comment here??? I'm not a fucking robot!!!!!!
@Anon - "But it's blind faith we're practicing in all the aspects of our lives, not just religion!"
Sorry, but this is really ridiculous and way over thinking our situation. We can only know the truth of our existence through our senses and perception. HOWEVER, we also have to understand that our perceptions can be manipulated both from within and without. This is when we examine empirical evidence and applying that to our belief system in order to validate what we think is true. Granted, there are some assumptions in physics that we just have to accept are valid. Things like assuming that the laws of physics work the same across the universe, very basic rudimentary concepts like that. But even those are validated with everything we learn.
We also *must* leave ourselves open-minded enough to allow our accepted "beliefs" to be changed if enough evidence is presented. Being open-minded is not a weakness, but a strength. But when you start questioning even little things that have been supported by the most brilliant minds of our age, and have mountains of supporting empirical evidence, it's no better than just accepting any crazy idea that comes along with no supporting evidence at all. This is not “blind faith” as you suggest. This is applying tested, reproducible evidence to concepts to validate them. Accepting the concept of E=MC2 is not “blind faith”. Science is a discipline that studies naturally occurring events, while offering natural explanations for the phenomenon under study. The data must be consistent, observable, predictable, and testable. And for any scientific theory to be accepted, ALL acquired data must be considered and validated. Once that happens, it just can’t simply be dismissed.
This kind of thinking is just as criminal as the religious trying to drag science down to their level, only to suggest that their religion is just as valid as scientific truth. Again, we can only know the external world through our senses and perceptions. If you doubt those beyond reason, then you'll never get anywhere.
as an atheist, I wonder if telling people reasons why god isnt real is a good thing. Like bonapart said, it keeps the common people quiet.
David, I am 23 years old and I've spent a great deal of my life trying to understand why I felt so strange when I talked to god. I grew up in christian home. My mother was very serious about it. My father wasn't and I don't think I've ever seen him pray. I'm not sure how he feels about it. A few months ago, I wrestled with the idea that god still existed but it only wasn't the christian one. And I believe I came to this conclusion out of fear because I did not want to not believe in a god altogether. I moved to a new city and started a job. I made a good deal of friends who were openly atheists. I realized I wasn't alone and that is when I finally accepted that I was also an atheist. The world truly opened up to me. It was not so terrible like I had nothing to live for, it was truly the contrary. I wanted to live fiercely and enjoy this terribly short life of mine and be good to my fellow man. I wanted to make something of myself. It was absolutely liberating. Before, when I engaged in religious practice, I felt much like a gay man trying to be with a woman. It felt forced and I could not understand it. When I came out if the atheist closet, I told my mother. She cried so very hard about it. She asked me if I was going to raise my children to be atheists. She asked if I was going to force my beliefs onto them. I told her no, of course and that I wanted them to come to their own conclusion about religion. She asked if she could read the bible to them and that is when I got angry. I think she believes that atheism is so evil and that the bible is the only method to teaching good. She believes that she should be able to talk about her god to my children but I can't tell them that it's just superstition. I am also mostly upset at the fact that Christians attribute all the good that comes out of this world to god. Religious people in general are guilty of this. It's maddening that for just one damn moment that we can't pat ourselves on the back for the good that we do and feel responsible for when the bad happens and stop blaming the devil. As long as we continue to subscribe to this nonsense, mankind will forever be in the shadow of a non existent man.
I am Christian. I believe the biggest enemy of The Gospel of Jesus Christ is Religion. You nailed #11 right on the head! Religion creates a bunch of people who want to make God a hobby. They make a "list" of these works that should prove to everybody that they believe in The Gospel of Jesus Christ. They become self-righteous and want to show that their list is longer and better than the next person, or religion. The Gospel teaches us that Jesus dying on The Cross was sufficient. Meritorious works to gain salvation diminishes what He did for us. Religion does that rather efficiently and it's made a whole bunch of people forget what The Gospel was all about! I suspect that most of them did this because they needed to keep their people in line. This has been a great disservice to what The Gospel teaches. I could go on, but I don't want to take up any more of your time. Thank you!
Anonymous,
I appreciate your agreement and kind words, but I must correct you on one thing.
The Bible absolutely does not teach that Jesus dying on the cross was sufficient for salvation.
Matthew 7:21 specifically teaches ongoing works and doing the "Will of the Father" in order to get to heaven.
But what's the Will of the Father?
And that's why the sects of Christianity can't agree.
@Anon - I'm sure you've read some of my posts on this thread and you might be expecting me to disrespect your view, but I'm going to surprise you (and possibly others here). I have to day that you're view of xianity is the ONLY view that I respect. I have said time and again, I don't care what you believe, as long as you don't try to force it down everyone else's throats.
Even though I agree with what Mr. Smalley said, I also believe that one of Jesus' teachings was that you should avoid the institution and practice your religion in a much more personal way. I think that whoever wrote most of these stories could clearly see that the institution of religion was very dangerous and manipulative and the only "pure" way to understand how a person should practice their beliefs was to study and understand the bible in their own way in the privacy of their own home.
I have several friends that are deeply religious, but what keeps us friends is that they don't try to force their religion on me and I don't try to expose what I see as the absurdity of their beliefs to them. This creates a peace where we can all live and let live, which is what rational people really care about, IMHO.
I read all of your reasons and I must say that I understand what you are saying, but as a "scholar", I must try to find a flaw in every statement untill I can fully accept it. The only flaw that I was able to find was unfortunately a very big one. You stated that every baby is born an atheist thefore having no belief in a god. With that premise it would logically be imposible to even imagine the thought of a god yet that thought still exist. I dont write this in order to start a discussion I simply do it as a way to point out a flaw in your statement thay need to be corrected (if possible) in order for you to strengthen your (atheistic) beliefs.
Hi Anon - "With that premise it would logically be impossible to even imagine the thought of a god yet that thought still exist"
Are you trying to claim that people don't have imaginations? Or are you trying to claim that, because people have thought of such a thing, invisible pink unicorns really do exist?
The point that you are referring to only points out that there is no inherent "knowledge" of gos, as many xians claim.
#11 hit it on the head for me. I will keep reading and exploring but living life as a "Christian" would mean living an inauthentic life, and I will not do that.
I found all of these comments very interesting. One of the things I find interesting is that Christians say I will bow down to their god. No, I do not think I will bow to your god. You're god is cruel, and I will not believe in him. If he is real, why should I worship him? Basically, a christian would worship a god with this mindset: "Thank-you God for having created me. Thank-you for letting me be born into sin. I don't need proof of your existence. I just know. There were 500 witnesses that were even recorded in the bible, the book that I use to base all of my evidence. Thank-you for letting me not burn in hell for doing so many bad things in my life, such as stealing a piece of candy at Walgreens. Thank-you for giving, what i consider, the worst people in the world a chance to repent of their sins and the possibility to live in eternal bliss with you, people such as Hitler. I know all sins are equal so if I kill 100 people, I know that I will still be forgiven just the same as that time you forgave me for sleeping with my best friend's wife. Thank-you for telling me that I need to fear you, as you directly state in the bible multiple times, so that I will hold onto my faith without wavering. I should turn my eyes away from the world's lies and numb my ears to any sound that may contradict what I believe. Anyone who doesn't believe what I believe, will sit in judgement before God. They will go to hell for refusing to believe in you, even though you give them so much evidence of your existence, such as the sun, the moon, the stars, my existence, and planet Earth. There is no way all of this could have to into existence by pure chance. Something had to have come from something else, such as god, even though faith requires me to believe that your existence came from nothing just as the atheists believe that everything had to have come from nothing, even though I do not wish to admit this truth. I mean, everything is so complex. Only God could have created it through his immense power, because I simply don't know how life could have spontaneously formed in nature. God, even though you watch women and children get raped and beaten in foreign countries, I know you will avenge them with your wrath some day. I know in my heart that homosexuality is wrong and that if they don't change, they will all burn in hell, for all eternity, a place of terrible agony and gnashing of teeth, for the way they live their lives." Come on guys! I intentionally tried to satirically show how awful this religion is. You are living in fear of a "just" god who has the option of sending children to hell for telling a lie to their parents. If you are offended, then think of it this way. It is what you believe and rewording it does not make the terrible truth sound any less bad. I became an atheist a week or so ago now. It was very difficult to break out of my fear so that I could see the truth. Do not try to prove your god, there is neither evidence for the conclusion of an existing god or evidence supporting the conclusion that there is no god. I am atheist agnostic. We believe that there is no evidence of a god and we, therefore, lack a belief in god, due to the inability of Christians, or any other religion for that matter, to prove that their god is real. I am aware that this article is older but I really wanted to respond, after reading, so I apologize if you carry any objections. Also, you may call me Joey for reference if any of you wish to respond, politely.
Hi, Joey here again. You may wish to respond to my via email, joeyjester1012@googlemail.com. My last name is not jester, that was for anonymity.
Suppose we've chosen the wrong God. Every time we go to church we're just making Him madder and madder. - Homer Simpson
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