1. If we truly had one creator speaking to prophets, it would do so consistently, not contradictory as thousands of different religions have proven.
2. Living by the means of man helping man, and realizing time on earth is not a practice run, creates an urgency of life that requires fulfilling.
3. I asked my four-year-old daughter where the stars came from. She confidently said “The moon made them.” I followed by asking “Then where did the moon come from?” She strongly asserted “Daddy, the moon is the boss. Nobody made the moon.” This is an unmistakably familiar mindset; and rightfully embarrassing for an adult to hold such similar thought.
4. Demeter, Jesus, Apollo, Horus, Zeus, Mithra, Yahweh, Tammuz, Ganesha, and Allah are only 10 of the thousands of gods recorded in history. An Atheist is not one that refuses to read religious doctrine; it is often one who reads too many.
5. In the technicalities of most religions, there is no difference between a believer that dies before having time to repent, and a nonbeliever that rejected the doctrine altogether.
6. If the Christian god created humans as sinners, how could it rightfully expect us to believe the corrupt messengers it has sent to teach us the way of life?
7. “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?” – Epicurus
8. All babies are Atheists. Religions are taught depending on the location and era in which you are raised. Being born in the U.S. in 1974 does not make you right, it most likely just makes you another Christian. That’s no better or worse than the person born in Tibet in 1955, who proudly worships the Dalai Lama.
9. It is better to find your own answers and make an educated decision, than to intentionally remain uneducated and make a fearful one.
10. Only for the sake of argument, if I were to astonishingly find myself face to face with a supreme being, I would expect to be judged on my life as a humanist, and how I treated others, (just as most Christians plan to be judged on character, not on the actual Ten Commandments). If my positive actions were ignored, and I was instead judged on using my intelligence to doubt religious doctrines created by human sinners, I would rather be eternally punished than bow to such an unfair tyrant who made things seemingly impossible for humans to succeed at this horrific game.
After more than a year of responding to comments on this and continuing my debates and investigations into religion, and my own psychology, I realized there was an 11th, and most important reason for my atheism...
11. I simply refuse to be a hypocritical, disingenuous Christian. I could go through the motions, attend the churches, shake the hands, follow the rituals of whichever religion or denomination of Christianity I liked the best, sing the songs, and help with the luncheons. That still wouldn't make me a believer. It would make me a pretender. I am honest with myself and those around me that these things don't make sense to me. That doesn't make me a bad person. It makes me an atheist.
787 comments:
1 – 200 of 787 Newer› Newest»With your close, personal connection to Mithra, s/he gets only one mention?! : )
Bill
Mithra knows how I feel. We talk privately.
8^)
LOL. you really don't know anything about religion. Time for someone to do a little more homework.
Wow! Judgement of everyone and everything by your own standard. Looks like you started your own religion.
I suppose since this is a debate site, I will oblige these ad hominem remarks with an intelligent response.
By passing my judgements on those of religious backgrounds, I have not created my own religion, but simply stated that an Atheist has made no religious claim, except that all spiritual claims are without proof. I am proud of my Atheism due to the humanistic values and ethics that come along with knowing we have nothing but this life to make a difference for mankind.
Religion is not the same as Atheism, or for that matter, even Christianity. Your religion, (or subset of other belief systems resulted by schisms of original worship) is actually just one of many thousands of systems of 'religious speaking' on this planet. Your religion is nothing more than a language - a system of speaking and scripts, which can never be correct, but only different from other versions of the same. You say I have little knowledge of religion, yet your knowledge is most likely that of Christianity alone, which is hardly a dedicated religion in itself. Which part of Christianity are you? The Methodist, Baptist, Protestant, Mormon, Lutheran, Anglican? Or do you perhaps belong to another pseudo-monotheism such as Islam, Judaism, or Mithraism, where Christianity stole most of its basic beliefs? Maybe a polytheistic religion suits you best, as you may worship Zeus, Apollo, and the others in Greek Mythology. Or maybe I'm way off base, and you really belong to a non-theistic religion such as ancestor worship, Animatism, or an ethical non-theism such as Buddhism. I really don't know because you are afraid to state your name and position, yet resort to slander during a debate - but nonetheless, your religious speaking is simply one among many that can never be proven, only heard as myths - just as all the rest that have fallen before you with gods that have been forgotten.
I will say again, it is often said that an Atheist is not one that knows too little about religion, but one that knows too much. I know your canned, scripted responses before you think them. I know your bible, que'ran, or vedas better than you, because I have proven most of it to be full of fallacies. It is you and your group that needs the education. The education that shows you, your religion is simply being used as a control mechanism - and you are but a sheep that follows. Napoleon Bonaparte said it best, "Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet." You are so common, and so simple, that you must resort to the ad hominem remarks as above, when you hardly understand that which you so confidently defend; and for that, I truly feel sorry for you.
nice roasting--maybe these people should read David Eller's latest book.
Bill
David, this is very thoughtful. I read it as I said I would and find some of it interesting and other parts very disturbing. I think what makes sense to me about religion is that there are many religions and gods as you have pointed out, but my belief is that there is only one true God who created earth and allowed each person his/her free will to choose what he/she believes.
Here are my responses to some of these points.
In regards to #5, you are right. However, in my religion, we do not believe that. A true "believer" usually repents every day and will not be judged wrongfully if they die before the next prayer. A nonbeliever has a second chance at hearing the gospel after he/she dies and before the resurrection of Christ. A believer who has rejected the gospel has blasphemed and will be judged accordingly.
In regards to #6... I agree with you that humans are sinners. Messengers from God are angels and therefore not human, therefore not sinners, therefore teaching the truth.
I agree with 8 and 9.
I look forward to future conversations with you.
Rays,
Thank you for the insightful response.
Do you know how many religions there are? The average person could name about 5 off the top of their head. A few could probably name 10 or 15. Being a student of psychology and religion, I can name roughly 20 without research. But do you know how many religions exist? Nearly 10,000.
My number one reason for being an Atheist is simply the inconsistencies of self-proclaimed prophets. It’s equivalent to seeing 9 different car ads on TV, all claiming to be ‘number one in their class’ and of course, at the ‘best price,’ but when you get there – they’re all the same with a common goal of manipulation, to get what they want out of you.
You believe that there is only one true god that created everything. But I ask you, what's that god's name? Yahweh - of the Holy Bible? I ask only because god is not a name, but a descriptive term.
The Holy Quran of Islam teaches of a similar monotheism (religion believing in only one god), but also supports evolution. There is even if a 'scripture' in the book which mentions the 'expansion of the universe' which is somewhat in line with the scientific ideology of the Big Band Theory.
My point is, Muslims also believe there is one true god that created us all, but his name is Allah - and no, that is not just their way of saying 'God' to refer to the same being. The Holy Quran is very different from the Holy Bible, and they completely reject Jesus as the son of any god, but say he was a prophet. So why are they wrong? Some say that Muslims are wrong because the prophet Muhammad (which wrote the Holy Quran) came roughly 500 years after Jesus. But if late = wrong, then what is Mormonism? Joseph Smith published the Book of Mormon in 1830!
You see, Rays – whether we are debating similar monotheisms such as Judaism, Islam, or Christianity, or perhaps schisms of each such as Orthodox, Reform, Baptist, Protestant, Catholicism, Lutheran, or Methodist – or the older polytheisms such as Greek Mythology, or even non-theistic (no god) religions such as Buddhism, you are all basically grabbing at straws for who has the right answer, and relying on ‘faith’ that your select handful of special people are the only ones destined for a happy eternity. From an Atheists’ point of view, the best argument against any religion is all the other religions. (A quote from David Eller, in Atheism Advanced, 2007). One basic concept of his book, is that religions are basically languages. You are saying the same things with different words to describe your rituals; and languages are only different, not right or wrong.
If there were one true god speaking to prophets, he would do so consistently, not contradictory as thousands of religions have proven.
Of course, each religion takes care of this nicely by placing a line of text in each of their books, which reads something to the effect of “false prophets will pretend to have evidence of other gods, but I am the only true one.” – and it’s scientifically impossible to prove otherwise. The ironic thing is, they are all talking about each other!
It amazes me that people follow these types of beliefs and rituals, and allow their church to demean them, split their families, suppress their women, and lose their lives, knowing there are thousands of other people doing the same things, and none of you could possibly know who REALLY has the one true religion, because you all warn of each other as mockers.
I am free of your burdens as an Atheist. I love mankind because I do, and nothing more. I hold the door open for you, because you are human, and nothing more. I will reach out and help you because I’m here and I can, and nothing more. I simply treat you the way I want to be treated without any set of rules, ethics, rituals, or spiritual guilt in my life. I have nothing to be sorry for, and nothing to repent. I am living true freedom everyday and it’s the most beautiful way to enjoy life. I am an Atheist, and I’ve never been more proud.
Wow David, again very insightful.
I do not judge others; nor do I say what is right or wrong in the world, only what is right for me. I do not point out the faults of other religions, because I simply do not know anything about them. I can see why you're an Atheist, and I understand your reasons... all of why I started asking you questions in the first place. You have made a very educated decision, which I support!
Although Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon in 1830, that is not the basis of my religion; it is another testament of Jesus Christ's time on Earth, on the American continent. The religion itself sprouted "late" as you coined it, but is based on the church's foundation in the new testament, which was after Jesus's birth. Please look into that a little more and read the Book of Mormon :)
Yes, I base my beliefs solely on faith because I have no proof that my God exists, but I also have no proof that he doesn't. I'd rather base my beliefs on something hopeful and possible than to not believe at all.
P.S. God's name is Wonderful, Master, Counselor, Savior, Almighty King, Prince of Peace, Ruler over everything... he has many different names... the list goes on and on and I do not speak of Him lightly.
Shelly
i think you a very smart man david, border-line genious. you have brought up so many contradictions in the many the religions that exist that would bring most to their knees so-to-speak.
i am a catholic turned atheist by choice (being baptized catholic was not voluntary, i was 2 years old)...i am still forced to go to a catholic high school, with theology teachers sitting there trying to tell me that i am brainwashed by people like you and dan brown who dont believe what they believe.
i tell them "no, the catholic church was what TRIED to brainwash me, but i finally opened my eyes and saw the many flaws and ridiculous and distorted views that catholics believe." that baffles them everytime, but then they come at me with "the world is so brilliantly created, so there must be a dominant creator or "God"...which brings me to your 3rd reason...who made this who made that...it has to be god, which makes me cringe
but getting to the point its people like you who keep my ideals in line, and for this i give you a big thumbs up, and i hope you respond to this...BTW im 17 and a junior if it matters
-Jay
Jay,
Thanks for the comments. It’s good to know I’ve been able to make a positive impact for you, and I appreciate you letting me know.
I understand what a relief it can be to hear reason in the midst of so much religiosity and bias teaching. I’ve been there, and it wasn’t until my early 20’s that I finally realized what was going on.
If I can give you any advice, it’s this: Never fall into the stereotype in which most theists try to place Atheists. I know it’s frustrating, and they seem very pushy and arrogant at times, but we must understand, that they honestly feel they have the truth, just as we do. Being negative, mocking, or condescending will not accomplish our goal; especially with you being a young man, where any arrogance or attitude, even if you’re right, will be blown off as teen-age rebellion.
Hold firm to the notion that the Atheist has made no assertion that needs proof. We simply state that religions are without sufficient evidence, so they should not be considered an absolute source of morality or law, and that’s what we hold on to. When our government (or society in general) begins to allow a specific religion to have a monopoly influence on our corporate governance, that’s where our activism steps in, and we stand up for our rights to be free from dogma.
But being an Atheist is two-fold. You can’t just be anti-Christian and think that’s going to take you anywhere. I urge you to embrace the Secular Humanism side of non-religious life and do everything you can to help your fellow man. Volunteer, donate your time, and do everything you can to make this world a better place than you found it.
As for Catholic school, just ask questions. Ask all of them. (You can find most of them here on this site…lol). Instead of trying to fight it and get out, (causing family problems) just obtain the best possible education you can from it and ask every question you can think of.
I’m here to help anyway I can, and it’s refreshing to hear words of encouragement from a young man such as yourself.
Thanks again.
thank you for your response david, and yes even as a non-religious person i should try to better myself and the world i live in.
i feel as if i can relate to you, since you had to go through biased religious teachings in past years as well. i am convinced that youre smarter than me, but youre also smarter than the theology teachers at my school.
i wish there were more people like you in this world. youre right about religious people stereo-typing atheists, especially at my school, telling me that i am a bad person because i dont believe in a higher power (god).
in reality, to me, they seem like the ones who are pushy and persnickety about others who are different. as an atheist, i feel as if i should share with others my opinions, but not force them.
i really appreciate you responding to my comments and giving me such inspiring advice. thank you so much for your time and effort in writing me back, and giving me pointers and things to ponder on that will ultimately better my intelligence on this subject.
-Jay
LOL i read this to try help me in an english assignment of 'Humanist Ethics vs Biblical Ethics' . . and was constantly thinking, WHAT A LOAD OF B/S!!
:)
ohh and i'd also like to add, your 4 year old daughter is smarter than you!
Anonymous,
I hope you finish your education soon. You have so much to learn about professionalism and representing your beliefs or non-beliefs in a manner which can be respected.
No one will take you seriously with an attitude like this, and I sure hope you consider that before your next reply, whether it's on this blog or another.
Good luck to you.
Here's reality..
You can say whatever you want, anything.
Make people believe what you want.
But the truth is your going to bow down to the King of Kings no matter what you believe.
You can say what you want now, and again, believe what you want.
God is waiting for you. Go to him with your heart open, don't argue. Just do it.
But then again, you don't have to do it, God dosn't force.
- I don't have to tell you about God, because you already know bout Him. -
"Don't argue, just do it."
That's the mentality of many who become controlled by group psychology. That's the point of religions; to heard mindless sheep using fear for political gain. Until you see that, your mind will forever be closed to the free life you could have without religion.
Christianity is only one monotheism among many religions. Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Native Americans, Ancient Romans, Greek Mythologists, other pagans, and the many aboriginals that practice ancestor worship and animism across the world will also have to face the King of Kings in your opinion.
He will be very busy after the rapture.
I agree wholeheartedly with your views, David. Someone has put into words things I have thought most of my life!
One point I always make is that religion is pushed into your head as a child, and I feel everyone should be able to think for themselves about it. Someone could believe in no higher beings than what we are, someone could believe dinosaurs rule over us, and someone could believe there is a man-like being that sits in the clouds. We should be free to think as we choose.
Agreed! The choice of belief is what our country was founded upon, and I fight for that everyday.
My 5 yr old daughter and 9 yr old son are forced to say "one nation, under God" every morning in the schools I pay for, and that's frustrating.
We are a free country, not a Christian nation.
Thanks for the comments.
David, I really like your top 10 and I'm pretty much on the same page.
It was the quote from the comments section that appeared in the April issue of "American Atheist" that led me here.
Theists would do well to learn how to debate instead of either posting the same old rhetoric ("you will bow down to the King of Kings" and so on) or start the ad hominem attacks. If only they could see just how this kind of "argument" proves everything that's said about them.
I recently asked a Christian what evidence he had that Odin hadn't created the Christian mythos to test the faith of his followers (most of whom had failed this test). Or that Christianity wasn't created by Loki, a perennial joker who was taking a jab at Odin.
The look I got was something like the eyes of a deer in the headlights.
Keep fighting the good fight.
I would like you to know:
As a Christian i choose to be like my creator who loves everyone REGARDLESS of their beliefs. I respect your opinion on this topic. But that is all it will ever be for you, you have nothing to live for. I'm thrilled to say i wake up every morning thanking GOD for the breath that i have in my body, that my heart continues to beat. I pray that when the Lord come back to earth he would have mercy on your soul. I believe the Bible - I have a personal relationship with Christ - i hate religion. I'm not a religious person, i don't believe that my good deeds are going to get me to heaven, i don't believe that i'm better than anyone else but i do believe in Jesus Christ and it is through him and ONLY through him that there will be eternal life. I'm not trying to push anything on you i'm sure you get that all the time. I just want you to know:
Jesus loves you regardless of your feelings of him. I'm not a brainwashed Christian, I've had my own experiences with Christ and i believe the Bible. And the bible says that in the end EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess. And i believe that one day, when you have nothing else to live for you will realize that he's there, sitting beside you, holding you. He's there- you can't get rid of him.
Btw.
You're really smart.
I didn't say any of that to debate with you my faith isn't a debate it's real life. When you make it a debate is when it's no longer a question of faith, it turns into a way to get attention. Thanks for listening to my opinion.
Ariel,
I have nothing to live for?
My 25-year-old wife with a gorgeous smile and dimples comes home to me every night, and makes dinner for our family. My 5-year-old daughter with bright blue eyes loves to lay on the couch and watch Spongebob with "Daddy." My 9-year-old son is learning MMA and wants to join the adult classes to be like me. I help them both with homework and tuck them in every night. And I have nothing to live for?
I'm a student of psychology and plan to finish my Ph.D and become a clinical psychologists, helping others with their problems. I'm almost finished with my first phase of school, and I've made tremendous progress. And I have nothing to live for?
I just finished writing my first book, which will help many "Closet Atheists" come out and see the true meanings of life; to help each other, reach out to their fellow man, and be strong without relying on a high power. I have influenced thousands of people to step out of their shells and do something for mankind, when all they thought about before was how a god would judge them. And I have nothing to live for?
I'm the Design Editor of a national magazine that is informative and entertaining, and that helps raise money for high school students to get scholorships to college. And I have nothing to live for?
I live for my son, I live for my daughter, I live for my wife, and I live for my career. I live for helping those in need and entertaining the rest. I live for making this world a better place than I found it, and I live for peace. I have very much to live for, and do not appreciate one bit, you saying that because I have no belief, I have no reason to live.
You should be careful to know a little about someone before speaking on their purpose of being alive.
If Jesus loves me, then Mithra, Ganesha, Thor, Apollo, Nammu, Hera, Xipe, Eris, Shiva, Utu, Hestia, and Demeter all love you. Can you feel it?
No, i can't FEEL them that is how i know that they aren't real. They didn't raise from the dead like HISTORY proves. But like i said this isn't a debate topic. It's my faith and your faith. I respect you. I pray for you. GOD BLESS YOU.
I love god.
And god loves. you.
-Mason Brinker
Read the b-i-b-l-e.
I love you.
Don't make me come down there.
- God
Dear God,
I know you will come down here. According to your history, you will possibly force me to kill babies and women of nearby neighborhoods, have us put homosexuals to death, stone misbehaving children to put the evil away from us, and potentially make our bowels fall out in a painful punishment for misbehavior.
I've read your book, and I'm just wondering, in your infinite wisdom, why didn't you let us know the world wasn't flat?
Dear David,
I still love you. :) And i always will:)
Corson
Who is Corson? I was talking to God.
And god calls his creation to love our neighboors. :)
Completely agreed.
Alyssa,
You completely agree with what? My post, or a response in the thread?
i feel better, at my school there are a very limmited amount of atheists, so i constantly have to go over the fact that i'm an atheist agian and again. and every. single. time, they try to make me change my mind, it really annoys me; it's like i dont have the right to have my own ideas and be free with it. so much that i accutally googled "i'm an atheist, so what?" anyways, thanks a lot. =]
well i always wonder why atheist choice to be ateist so easy.Let me explain with example.
I say there is black apple with purple juice. And u say it's not possible. And i say prove it. How can u prove it?Unless u search all over the world(maybe planet) u cant be sure right? But for me to prove i just find one and tadaaa.
So to be logical u should not reject so easy.
1.Your first claim also not logical.The reason why humans didnt created as angel is this. Humans have chance to be more than angel(islam says humans accepted this before the creation.)Those messengers arent different.They all same.But their message has been changed by humans for their own rights(this is also test).But In kuran ALLAH guarantees that kuran can not be changed since it s the last message. to decline kuran is so easy. just prove it has been changed tadaa.
2.my English doesn’t enough for second part. i didn’t understand it:(
3.Your daughter smart enough to realise that everything needs creator.Tell me something which created it self.dont u think its so stupid to think evenif simple paint created itself(but u are claiming whole galaxy has no creator?).everything has to have creator this is the logical thinking. declining this is so nonsense that may make u look stupid.
4.There can be only one god. of course it should be the strongest one. Fake gods u talked about were made of stupid humans for their own goods who couldn't realise how god is.Also this is what the messengers have fought against.bad agaisnt evil.
5.In the technicalities dont consider most relegions since only one truth can be(so others probably wrong).I say it is islam which is true from start to end and last message.In islam it is up to god who can judge it.And he is the most fair of all.So nonsense to talk about it since w emay even not think that much fair.But i can say repenting before die is better than diying without repent.
6.In islam everyone borns innocent and they stay innocent till they can control their mind completly(some says this is till 18 age).Thats why we beleive that jesus was the messenger but his messages has ben changed,damaged .thats why jesus come to world as messenger since the messages that musa said was changed..if it wasnt damaged there wont be new messengers necessary.
7. i remember einstein words about this.God gives everyone exactly what they deserve.without black white has no specialities. without cold ,hot can not exist.without evil goodness means nothing.But in the end everything will be judged perfectly.thiss where punishing and pricing comes.how can u blame someone if u prevent him to do?This world means nothing but a test going to infinite life.So evil things means nothing since they will be punished perfectly and goodness priced also perfectly.U need to understand this world means nothing more than a gate.
8.humans will be judged according to their situations.So u are right.They are not same.But human mind can find the creator even if no one tell it(look at your daughter how she find the creator).İt s like learning goodness without being thought that it is good.its as simple as to learn that good is good.
They say good people even if atheist should deserve heaven.Well this is up to creator not our business.But I think they will still going to hell but better part of hell.letme explain with example.
You are going to a country but after u go there u say that I don’t accept rules here I also don’t believe there is ruler here. U are probably going to jail even if u are good guy .
9.Yes It is all about finding your own answers.But with teacher it can be easier dont u think so?even if for simple things they write manuels.tell me why?to use it right.such perfect creations like humans ofcourse shouldt left without guide.finding right guide is also test.
10.As i said you will be judged perfectly according to your attidues. Living not just means your tread to others.Also it is about how u live also how u feel.So both and more will be judged.As i said Allah is the most fair .He wont make mistake.
I also don’t understand why atheist wants to shout they are atheist .Who cares if u are atheist or not and what happens if u shout? Why don’t u keep it to yourself? U want to enlighten people which is unnecessary as u said for the messengers? Or u want o find the truth?
"The moon is the boss". LOL
-sea.envy
Isn't it great seeing the world from the point of view as an atheist. People say one of the best things about religion is that in almost every religion there's a god that points out what's wrong and what right ( basically don't sin). But doesn't every human already know this? Being an atheist is probaly even better in fact because when we do good things we do them because we know it is the good thing to do. We do it because we know we will feel better about ourselves. We do it because we know there is no second chance. We aren't confined to heaven and hell or paridise or torture. As you said before we are free. Now why won't more people join us? Because they have been taught by parents and preachers to beilive in something.If kids were given a holy book from the ten main religions and something from an atheist, what do you think they would believe in? They would probaly end up being overwhelmed by all the different and conflicting religions and go with being an atheist, but that sadly never happens. The only way to become an atheist now a days is to be raised as an atheist or to actually look at their religion. And that is why so few people are actually free.
You're wise beyond your years. It took me much longer to discover that.
Very well said.
Believe what you want to believe. But dont ask urself questions abt your belief.. That's how u'll turn into an atheist (one of us).
3."I asked my four-year-old daughter where the stars came from. She confidently said “The moon made them.” I followed by asking “Then where did the moon come from?” She strongly asserted “Daddy, the moon is the boss. Nobody made the moon.” This is an unmistakably familiar mindset; and rightfully embarrassing for an adult to hold such similar thought."
On the other hand I find it interesting that your daughter instinctively or intuitive already knows that there is a "boss" especially given the way she is probably being raised. Most of us do have that sixth sense, or intuition that tells us there is more than just this moment, and just this life. We know it because we come from it. Your daughter knows, she has not lost that sense of the greater truth. Its not a juvenile thought, it actually shows how in touch she is with her being. You have either never had that sense, repress it, lost it or have never learned how to use it. I sincerely hope that you keep an open mind where your children are concerned and allow them to make their on choices without judgments or ridicule for what they might end up believing in.
David,
Let me explain a little of my situation to you. I am a 16 year old girl whom is an atheist. My entire family is very strict catholic. I just recently realized I do not believe in God. Half of my family will not talk to me and the other half will not look at me. My mom never forced religion on to me, I was always taught I can have my own opinions and beliefs. My parents are devorced, my Dad's side is jewish and my Mom's is catholic. I live with my mom most of the time, but whenever I go to my fathers I find myself wishing there is some sort of god that could help me. I sleep in a garage while at my dads and I am constantly abused not because of religion but because of who I am. I am an activist according to my mom, I stick up for what I believe in, and I dream of helping people all over the world. I am abused by my father yet I have learned things that it takes some people a lifetime to learn. I know how to study people and figure out when they are mad. I know the right way how to treat people and i know not to waste time praying to any imaginary creature that is called God.
You see my dad doesn't believe I should have beliefs, he needs to be in control of everything. Maybe that is when I figured out I am an Athesit. When I prayed to God and nothing got better. I am not usually open about this but I always felt dumb praying to something I couldn't see or prove it is there. My only problem was I couldn't figure out where morals came from. People say the bible teaches morals yet I have read parts and I never got the clue it taught morals. Then I figured it out. I don't have morals, I have ethics. They are based on dealing with others in the way that I wish to be dealt with myself. I mean that doesn't work with my dad but he is an exception to the rule.
Thank you for listening to my story. I always wanted to believe in god but I understand the truth even though sometimes it is disapointing...
-Emilia
Here is a quote I often read:
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
Brother Richard
Emilia,
Thanks for being brave enough to stand up for your honest feelings, and for sharing that side of your life with my readers. I know it's not easy.
First of all, I must address the abuse. I cannot stress enough that you seek help for that immediately; no one should have to live under those conditions. You deserve to be happy and loved.
I was about your age when I started realizing my atheism as well; and I know how tough it can be in a Christian family. I too, share your strong desire to help people all over the world, and my wife and I are putting plans together to create a Secular Life Rehabilitation Center to help the homeless, and people that have hit rock bottom. We will help them with everything from motivation, to job seeking, computer skills, counseling, and managing finances. All this will be done without the influence of gods, sins, demons, or angels.
I understand exactly what you mean when you "wish" for a god that could protect you. We all do. The evidence just isn't there, and we must be in control of our own destiny and take responsibility for our own lives and our own successes.
It may seem at first to be disappointing that no god exists, but at the same time, it opens the world to an amazing freedom that believers do not have. We are without guilt. We know that nothing's watching our every move. We do not fear eternal punishment. We weigh each consequence before making decisions. We care for our fellow humans and strive to help because we care, not out of fear. We do not fear demons. We are not delusional. To have completely figured this out at age 16, is amazing! You're miles ahead of millions!
From this point, I can only stress education: to finish high school and immediately go into college. Knowledge truly is power. There are also several books you could read that will help arm yourself with knowledge to have those discussions with your family. If I can help in any way, please let me know: dsmalley@atheists.org
Thank you David.
About the abuse, I have dealt with it my whole life. I only have to see my father 8 more times until I turn 18. I am strong. I have made it through 16 years. I will be OK.
You are completely right I do not fear much because of my beliefs. I seem to cope more with scary movie then my friends because I am aware the supernatural is fake.
I think it amazing what you and your wife are doing. You will save lives and help tons of people. You should be proud.
College is certainly first on my list before anything else. I plan to get a psycology degree and help children cope against child abuse.
Thanks again for your consideration and for making this blog. I think you really helped me figure out who I am. You earned your right as one of my heros.
-Sam
P.S Your daughter sounds very smart.
Thank you David.
About the abuse, I have dealt with it my whole life. I only have to see my father 8 more times until I turn 18. I am strong. I have made it through 16 years. I will be OK.
You are completely right I do not fear much because of my beliefs. I seem to cope more with scary movie then my friends because I am aware the supernatural is fake.
I think it amazing what you and your wife are doing. You will save lives and help tons of people. You should be proud.
College is certainly first on my list before anything else. I plan to get a psycology degree and help children cope against child abuse.
Thanks again for your consideration and for making this blog. I think you really helped me figure out who I am. You earned your right as one of my heros.
-Sam
P.S Your daughter sounds very smart.
God gives us life and consequently creates death. Why is it so ridiculous that people worship the sun. As far as im concerned, in our remote location of the universe, this is the one relatively specific object that could be labeled as God. I'm agnostic, not atheist because i believe in an entity, a presence, perhaps an essence that moves us through time. I do not believe in an ultimate good or bad, i personally have my own set of morals and what i consider good or bad but i refuse to label the actions of others good...or evil. I personally like peace, and friendship, and harmony with our neighbors and our planet....But in the end i feel it doesn't really matter. Our time here on earth is but a blink of an eye in the fabric of time. I've enjoyed reading everyones posts and i agree with mr smiley here on many topics. I however propose the notion that in fact, we do have relatively nothing, and relatively everything to live for. In relevance to enjoying our lives and helping others, we have everything to live for. In terms of the overall effect we will have on our tiny, sad little spec of the universe, it really doesnt matter what the f**k you do.
name-arpan.....location-india....delhi
i'm a hindu from birth and intentionally i have choosen to be a atheist.
I truly support every theory of yours... i wont believe in anything unseen, which is not proven and people preaching it cannot clarify where it actually came from ?
Help me to understand. If atheist don't believe in God, why do they spend so much time talking about Him (talking so much about someone they don't believe in)???
If you found the cure for cancer, wouldn't you tell the world?
Jake - TN
Everyone talks about things in which they don't believe. I talk about Star Wars all the time. Or Lost. Maybe Lord of the Rings. Doesn't mean I believe they're real...
Anyway. Something to be said about the way a young child instinctively thinks there is a "boss" of some sort: That is how religion began. People without knowedge created their own theory about how the world came to be. The first religions featured only a creator god(s). There was no "good and evil," and no protection. Simply that there were gods, but no afterlife. Then people saw how other people conducted themeselves and disagreed. God then became the protector. The concept of good and evil emerged; god protected the good and punished the evil here on earth, and that their society would be favored to win wars (ancient Egyptians, early Greek theology). Then the fear of dying became too much to bear and that there must be an afterlife, but it was the same for everyone: good or bad (again in Egypt and Greece. This pertains also to the Pagans and Hindus regarding reincarnation, the fear of death, that is). Punishment and reward still only existed on Earth Only until people begin to notice that this wasn't necessarily so (good things happening to bad people, bad things happening to good people) that there became the idea of two separate afterlives: a good one and a bad one. The creation myths were still very unrealistic and elaborate (ancient Greece and Rome). People started learning more about earth and the way things really are (science). Since then religions and creation myths have become slightly more realistic (stress slightly). That refers to the more modern Judeo-Christian-Islamic religions. The more we learn through science, the smaller the gap of things attributed to a god or gods becomes. I fully believe that as society evolves further, the gap will become practically nonexistent and there will be very few people (mostly in less developed countries or those wishing to escape contemporary society) who still have faith in personal/creator gods. I do not believe, however, that the idea of a mystical higher power will ever completely disappear.
There you have it. The history of religion. In summation 1. People didn't have science to how the world and themselves got here, so they made the idea of gods to explain it. 2. They feared death, thus the idea of an afterlife. 3. People didn't act or believe the way others did and were seen as evil, thus the idea of two separate and opposite afterlives. 4. Things became more easily understood through science, so creation myths and interaction between humans and deities became more realistic. 5. Modern era.
That is why people believe in gods and have religon. Not because of logic or reason, but because of fear and false hope.
Jake. Atheist.
Sorry dude, but I have to agree with everyone else here. You talk the biggest load of bs i've ever heard. What about the Dead Sea Scrolls? Also Jesus isn't their God - he's their god in human form, therefore not a divine entity. I've made an educated decision and I believe that there is a God however he wouldn't care about the small details in my life. He would care about how good a person I was etc. and I believe he would welcome Atheists, but you talk some crap.
I fear for the people that debate you, not because of your debating prowess, but because their faces and palms will be incredibly painful by the end of the debate. Your points are really just bias opinions from ages of "THERE IS NOTHING. HUMANS ARE SUPERIOR. NOTHING WEIRD CAN HAPPEN. EVER." indoctrination, from a pathetic excuse for an organisation. I hope you enjoy your ignorance, keep in mind that I am not Christian.
I talk the biggest load of BS you've ever heard? Really?
I dismiss the Christian beliefs because they are myths without proof, and that's BS? I say that we can be good without gods, and that the public sector should be protected from religious bigotry that's BS? I question the historicity of the Bible, and that's BS?
What are you talking about that's BS? It's really easy for you to pop on here and make some random statement, but I'd like to see you back it up with something substantial and instead of dropping by to throw an insult out, and then run without providing any ideas of your own.
I'd rather have a stance and take the chance of being wrong, than to be a coward that offers no real substance to anything other than insulting people I don't understand.
Well I'm an atheist and i was wondering about all the things that they find, like artifacts that are in the Bible. wouldn't that help prove there is a god or people that just wasted there time following there false beliefs?
Well David, I definitely understand where you're coming from. This goes to the god believers, you wouldn't believe in santa claus, unicorns, "big foots" or fairies, so what makes not believing in god any different? How come we call it "greek mythology"? You wouldn't believe in those supernatural beings but why can't u take the same concept and say god is only part of our imaginary being. I mean, we knowfollowing those pathetic guidelines from some religions to a point that we find flaws and contradictions in it. Religion is different than believig in a god ot slef. Religion is rules of life. God was only brought in our minds to strictly follow a certai religion. Psychologically, human beings fear the unknown. That's why we are taught to believe in a so called god. No offense, but religious people are only ignorant. At least, non god believers do things in the mere of goodness not because of some fear that we'd end of in hell or something. We do things using logic and dfinite reasoning. We don't need god to be the reason why we have to be good. I'm not sayong religion is bad. Because honestly, without guidelines of life, our world would probably be on chaos. But like I said my only argument here is that people bieve in a god. That doesn't have to be mixed in with religion. The way people perceive nowadays is just hilarious. Let's see, what makes more sense. "God created life" well then "who created god itself" but obviously something came out of nothing. But for nothing to exist, it must have come out of something. The world may nevver know how we ever came to be. But every day I am suire we are getting closer to understanding more about our universe. David I just wish one daywe get some sprt of an absolute understanding. I mean f there IS anything supreme, I considder it to be energy. We live, we die. That's how life is. And btw people, we don't just say we are atheists just because we don't feel like believing in god. Its because of thinking rationally. You have to be more open minded. I mean, why wouldn't we want for a god to be tjhere protecting us. But honestly we don't see that. Us human beings are supreme creatures on this planet yet... Our universe is to large for only us to exist. The possibilies of alien existence is also possible. Why can't we all just get along and find the absolute truth. And I don't mean jesus. Don't listen to your parents. Unless they are open mindedbelieving in a god is like believing the world is flat. It was proven wronng wasn't it? So what makes this any different?
Another thing David,I'm 18, I come from an islamic religion. And when I told my mom I didmt believe in god. And I gave her my reasonings, it offended her, but when I asked her why she believed in god, and with what scientific proof? She told me that science was written in the quran? And the answer was in the word "believe". Oh and david, I'm also curious about another subject. How come some people claim they have seen ghosts? Or demons and etc? Would that be discarded as the same issue as believing in a god or is it another subject we can put along with existence of aliens and suuch.? Do u get what I mean? I guess I'm just very curious. Like I'm dying to figure out life before I die, geez.
Ayesha,
Thanks for the post. You're very insightful and quite intelligent for your age. I didn't think to ask a lot of those questions until my twenties. Keep it up!
You said a few things I want to touch on. One was "I'm not saying religion is bad. Because honestly, without guidelines of life, our world would probably be on chaos."
You are correct but life would not exist without sociological norm. It is often misunderstood that religion sets those guidelines. It does not. Society does, with or without religion. In fact, more deaths have come as the result of religious convictions than any other 'cause' known to man. No one ever kills in the name of atheism. Yet we are the ones shunned from society. You are right. It is just due to ignorance. I'm trying to change that mindset of us by being very public and cordial to those believers who do not understand us.
I really hope you get into college as soon as possible, if you're not already. You would absolutely love the college courses on sociology, ethics, and psychology. This is exactly what we talk about. When you do, you will find that many ethical systems exist without religions, and many societies function without the belief in a deity.
Just as an example, there are 4 billion people on the planet that do not recognize Jesus as a god. Those folks get along just fine without him, and without his mythical father.
I know that you want an absolute understanding of the origins of life, and the meaning of life. Welcome to the club. You are a free thinker. You have fought through the brainwashing and made it out without the zombie mentality. Congratulations.
Your next step is to arm yourself with information. The two best ways to do that are formal education, and your own research. Just by your post, I can tell that you would love the field I'm in--psychology.
That brings me to your last question about ghosts. I probably need to do an entire post just on spiritual sightings, because I won't have room to clear it all up in this response. But briefly, in psychology, we learn that the mind is very powerful. Our brain responds to stimuli and what information isn't available, is substituted by our creativity. Have you ever heard a child screaming in the distance, only to realize it was just something sqeaking outside? - Or perhaps you've heard your mom call you, only to realize she never said anything? Our minds try to substite new sights and sounds for things that we 'expect.' That's why we never hear about ghostly sightings in the middle of the park on a bright sunny day.
The person is usually alone, it's typically dark, and they are already afraid before their mind starts creating the images. There's a lot more to talk about on this, and thanks for bringing it up. I'll write a fresh blog post on this that I hope you will respond to.
Thanks again for writing. Perhaps you'd be interested in my weekly Internet radio show Wed. night at 8c/9e. Just click 'Radio Show' in the upper right hand corner of this web site to listen live with us online.
Hello David,
Allow me to express my opinion on your site. I've read very little that has been written here and have not listened to any of your radio programs, so forgive me if I repeat what others might have already said. I will be speaking from a Christian viewpoint.
Let me respond to your first reason for being an Atheist. "If we truly had one creator speaking to prophets, it would do so consistently, not contradictory as thousands of different religions have proven."
First of all this statement is based on the false premise that because prophets contradict each other they must all be false prophets. If all prophets are true prophets then there obviously shouldn't be any contradiction, but just because there is contradiction doesn't mean all prophets are false prophets. There might be a few true prophets in the mix. If some were true prophets and others false we should expect contradiction. The fact that there are thousands of religions only shows that there are thousands of false prophets. It does not show that God hasn't spoken through the true ones.
Secondly the statement is based on another false premise that the true God would speak through many prophets in many religions. No, the true God need only speak through one religion if he so chooses.
Think a minute from the Christian perspective. Christ need come only once to die for the sins of mankind. It would be kind of cruel and senseless for God to subject Christ to come within the context of every religion, suffer repeatedly and die over and over again just so that those religions could be true and viable. No, we would expect God to choose, or develop one nation, teach them all the concepts they would need to know to understand the atonement and then send Christ just once for all mankind for all time.
The fact that there are many false religions would not disqualify the true one. If there need be only one winner in a lottery, then the fact that there are millions of losers does not negate the possibility of a real winner somewhere.
As to prophets, I believe the one creator God has chosen to speak through them. (Hebrews 1:1-2) True prophets are consistent and without contradiction. We must refrain from the temptation to throw out the baby with the bath water. We need to weed out the false from the true.
The primary way to know if a prophet is true or not is by his prediction rate. A true prophet's predictions will be accurate 100% of the time. False prophets in the Old Covenant were put to death for one false prediction. (Deuteronomy 18:17-22) True prophets were known by the accuracy of their prophesies and the signs and wonders they performed to prove their authority. (Ezekiel 33:33)
Jesus also tells us another way to recognize false prophets is by their fruit. (Matthew 7:15-20)
The accuracy of biblical prophecy is uncanny. In Christ alone over 300 prophesies came true. Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 predict the crucifixion of Christ in great detail. We have complete manuscripts of both dating to 200 B.C. and written confirmation by four gospel writers (provided their testimony is true) as to their fulfillment. Jesus quotes both as referring to himself.
One of the strongest proofs about Christ is the 100% fulfillment of the prophesies written about him, something not only atheists but Jews and Muslims need to consider.
So your first reason for being an atheist is extremely weak, based on false premises and biblical prophesy has been shown to be accurate, consistent and without contradiction.
Naulon
Hello David,
Allow me to express my opinion on your site. I've read very little that has been written here and have not listened to any of your radio programs, so forgive me if I repeat what others might have already said. I will be speaking from a Christian viewpoint.
Let me respond to your first reason for being an Atheist. "If we truly had one creator speaking to prophets, it would do so consistently, not contradictory as thousands of different religions have proven."
First of all this statement is based on the false premise that because prophets contradict each other they must all be false prophets. If all prophets are true prophets then there obviously shouldn't be any contradiction, but just because there is contradiction doesn't mean all prophets are false prophets. There might be a few true prophets in the mix. If some were true prophets and others false we should expect contradiction. The fact that there are thousands of religions only shows that there are thousands of false prophets. It does not show that God hasn't spoken through the true ones.
Secondly the statement is based on another false premise that the true God would speak through many prophets in many religions. No, the true God need only speak through one religion if he so chooses.
Think a minute from the Christian perspective. Christ need come only once to die for the sins of mankind. It would be kind of cruel and senseless for God to subject Christ to come within the context of every religion, suffer repeatedly and die over and over again just so that those religions could be true and viable. No, we would expect God to choose, or develop one nation, teach them all the concepts they would need to know to understand the atonement and then send Christ just once for all mankind for all time.
The fact that there are many false religions would not disqualify the true one. If there need be only one winner in a lottery, then the fact that there are millions of losers does not negate the possibility of a real winner somewhere.
As to prophets, I believe the one creator God has chosen to speak through them. (Hebrews 1:1-2) True prophets are consistent and without contradiction. We must refrain from the temptation to throw out the baby with the bath water. We need to weed out the false from the true.
The primary way to know if a prophet is true or not is by his prediction rate. A true prophet's predictions will be accurate 100% of the time. False prophets in the Old Covenant were put to death for one false prediction. (Deuteronomy 18:17-22) True prophets were known by the accuracy of their prophesies and the signs and wonders they performed to prove their authority. (Ezekiel 33:33)
Jesus also tells us another way to recognize false prophets is by their fruit. (Matthew 7:15-20)
The accuracy of biblical prophecy is uncanny. In Christ alone over 300 prophesies came true. Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 predict the crucifixion of Christ in great detail. We have complete manuscripts of both dating to 200 B.C. and written confirmation by four gospel writers (provided their testimony is true) as to their fulfillment. Jesus quotes both as referring to himself.
One of the strongest proofs about Christ is the 100% fulfillment of the prophesies written about him, something not only atheists but Jews and Muslims need to consider.
So your first reason for being an atheist is extremely weak, based on false premises and biblical prophesy has been shown to be accurate, consistent and without contradiction.
Naulon
Hello David,
Allow me to express my opinion on your site. I've read very little that has been written here and have not listened to any of your radio programs, so forgive me if I repeat what others might have already said. I will be speaking from a Christian viewpoint.
Let me respond to your first reason for being an Atheist. "If we truly had one creator speaking to prophets, it would do so consistently, not contradictory as thousands of different religions have proven."
First of all this statement is based on the false premise that because prophets contradict each other they must all be false prophets. If all prophets are true prophets then there obviously shouldn't be any contradiction, but just because there is contradiction doesn't mean all prophets are false prophets. There might be a few true prophets in the mix. If some were true prophets and others false we should expect contradiction. The fact that there are thousands of religions only shows that there are thousands of false prophets. It does not show that God hasn't spoken through the true ones.
Secondly the statement is based on another false premise that the true God would speak through many prophets in many religions. No, the true God need only speak through one religion if he so chooses.
Think a minute from the Christian perspective. Christ need come only once to die for the sins of mankind. It would be kind of cruel and senseless for God to subject Christ to come within the context of every religion, suffer repeatedly and die over and over again just so that those religions could be true and viable. No, we would expect God to choose, or develop one nation, teach them all the concepts they would need to know to understand the atonement and then send Christ just once for all mankind for all time.
The fact that there are many false religions would not disqualify the true one. If there need be only one winner in a lottery, then the fact that there are millions of losers does not negate the possibility of a real winner somewhere.
As to prophets, I believe the one creator God has chosen to speak through them. (Hebrews 1:1-2) True prophets are consistent and without contradiction. We must refrain from the temptation to throw out the baby with the bath water. We need to weed out the false from the true.
The primary way to know if a prophet is true or not is by his prediction rate. A true prophet's predictions will be accurate 100% of the time. False prophets in the Old Covenant were put to death for one false prediction. (Deuteronomy 18:17-22) True prophets were known by the accuracy of their prophesies and the signs and wonders they performed to prove their authority. (Ezekiel 33:33)
Jesus also tells us another way to recognize false prophets is by their fruit. (Matthew 7:15-20)
The accuracy of biblical prophecy is uncanny. In Christ alone over 300 prophesies came true. Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 predict the crucifixion of Christ in great detail. We have complete manuscripts of both dating to 200 B.C. and written confirmation by four gospel writers (provided their testimony is true) as to their fulfillment. Jesus quotes both as referring to himself.
One of the strongest proofs about Christ is the 100% fulfillment of the prophesies written about him, something not only atheists but Jews and Muslims need to consider.
So your first reason for being an atheist is extremely weak, based on false premises and biblical prophesy has been shown to be accurate, consistent and without contradiction.
Naulon
Hello David,
I've read very little that has been written here, so forgive me if I repeat what others might have already said. I will be speaking from a Christian viewpoint.
Let me respond to your first reason for being an Atheist. "If we truly had one creator speaking to prophets, it would do so consistently, not contradictory as thousands of different religions have proven."
First of all this statement is based on the false premise that because prophets contradict each other they must all be false prophets. If all prophets are true prophets then there obviously shouldn't be any contradiction, but just because there is contradiction doesn't mean all prophets are false prophets. There might be a few true prophets in the mix. If some were true prophets and others false we should expect contradiction. The fact that there are thousands of religions only shows that there are thousands of false prophets. It does not show that God hasn't spoken through the true ones.
Secondly the statement is based on another false premise that the true God would speak through many prophets in many religions. No, the true God need only speak through one religion if he so chooses.
Think a minute from the Christian perspective. Christ need come only once to die for the sins of mankind. It would be kind of cruel and senseless for God to subject Christ to come within the context of every religion, suffer repeatedly and die over and over again just so that those religions could be true and viable. No, we would expect God to choose, or develop one nation, teach them all the concepts they would need to know to understand the atonement and then send Christ just once for all mankind for all time.
The fact that there are many false religions would not disqualify the true one. If there need be only one winner in a lottery, then the fact that there are millions of losers does not negate the possibility of a real winner somewhere.
As to prophets, I believe the one creator God has chosen to speak through them. (Hebrews 1:1-2) True prophets are consistent and without contradiction. We must refrain from the temptation to throw out the baby with the bath water. We need to weed out the false from the true.
The primary way to know if a prophet is true or not is by his prediction rate. A true prophet's predictions will be accurate 100% of the time. False prophets in the Old Covenant were put to death for one false prediction. (Deuteronomy 18:17-22) True prophets were known by the accuracy of their prophesies and the signs and wonders they performed to prove their authority. (Ezekiel 33:33)
Jesus also tells us another way to recognize false prophets is by their fruit. (Matthew 7:15-20)
The accuracy of biblical prophecy is uncanny. In Christ alone over 300 prophesies came true. Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 predict the crucifixion of Christ in great detail. We have complete manuscripts of both dating to 200 B.C. and written confirmation by four gospel writers (provided their testimony is true) as to their fulfillment. Jesus quotes both as referring to himself.
One of the strongest proofs about Christ is the 100% fulfillment of the prophesies written about him, something not only atheists but Jews and Muslims need to consider.
So your first reason for being an atheist is extremely weak, based on false premises and biblical prophesy has been shown to be accurate, consistent and without contradiction.
Naulon
Hello David,
I've read very little that has been written here, so forgive me if I repeat what others might have already said. I will be speaking from a Christian viewpoint.
Let me respond to your first reason for being an Atheist. "If we truly had one creator speaking to prophets, it would do so consistently, not contradictory as thousands of different religions have proven."
First of all this statement is based on the false premise that because prophets contradict each other they must all be false prophets. If all prophets are true prophets then there obviously shouldn't be any contradiction, but just because there is contradiction doesn't mean all prophets are false prophets. There might be a few true prophets in the mix. and we should expect contradiction. The fact that there are thousands of religions only shows that there are thousands of false prophets. It does not show that God hasn't spoken through the true ones.
Secondly the statement is based on another false premise that the true God would speak through many prophets in many religions. No, the true God need only speak through one religion if he so chooses.
From the Christian perspective, it would be kind of cruel and senseless for God to subject Christ to come within the context of every religion, suffer repeatedly and die over and over again just so that those religions could be true and viable. No, we would expect God to choose or develop, one nation, teach them all the concepts they would need to understand the atonement and then send Christ just once for all mankind for all time.
The fact that there are many false religions would not disqualify the true one. If there need be only one winner in a lottery, then the fact that there are millions of losers does not negate the possibility of a real winner somewhere.
As to prophets, I believe God has chosen to speak through them. (Hebrews 1:1-2) True prophets are consistent and without contradiction. We must refrain from the temptation to throw out the baby with the bath water. We need to weed out the false from the true.
The primary way to know if a prophet is true or not is by his prediction rate. A true prophet's predictions will be accurate 100% of the time. False prophets in the Old Covenant were put to death for one false prediction. (Deuteronomy 18:17-22) True prophets were known by the accuracy of their prophesies and the signs and wonders they performed to prove their authority. (Ezekiel 33:33) Jesus also tells us another way to recognize false prophets is by their fruit. (Matthew 7:15-20)
The accuracy of biblical prophecy is uncanny. In Christ alone, over 300 prophesies came true. Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 predict the crucifixion of Christ in great detail. We have complete manuscripts of both dating to 200 B.C. and written confirmation by four gospel writers (provided their testimony is true) as to their fulfillment. Jesus quotes both as referring to himself.
One of the strongest proofs about Christ is the 100% fulfillment of the prophesies written about him, something not only atheists but Jews and Muslims need to consider.
So your first reason for being an atheist is extremely weak, based on false premises and biblical prophesy has been shown to be accurate, consistent and without contradiction.
Naulon
Hello David,
I've read very little that has been written here, so forgive me if I repeat what others might have already said. I will be speaking from a Christian viewpoint.
Let me respond to your first reason for being an Atheist. "If we truly had one creator speaking to prophets, it would do so consistently, not contradictory as thousands of different religions have proven."
First of all this statement is based on the false premise that because prophets contradict each other they must all be false prophets. If all prophets are true prophets then there obviously shouldn't be any contradiction, but just because there is contradiction doesn't mean all prophets are false prophets. There might be a few true prophets in the mix. and we should expect contradiction. The fact that there are thousands of religions only shows that there are thousands of false prophets. It does not show that God hasn't spoken through the true ones.
Secondly the statement is based on another false premise that the true God would speak through many prophets in many religions. No, the true God need only speak through one religion if he so chooses.
From the Christian perspective, it would be kind of cruel and senseless for God to subject Christ to come within the context of every religion, suffer repeatedly and die over and over again just so that those religions could be true and viable. No, we would expect God to choose or develop, one nation, teach them all the concepts they would need to understand the atonement and then send Christ just once for all mankind for all time.
The fact that there are many false religions would not disqualify the true one. If there need be only one winner in a lottery, then the fact that there are millions of losers does not negate the possibility of a real winner somewhere.
As to prophets, I believe God has chosen to speak through them. (Hebrews 1:1-2) True prophets are consistent and without contradiction. We must refrain from the temptation to throw out the baby with the bath water. We need to weed out the false from the true.
The primary way to know if a prophet is true or not is by his prediction rate. A true prophet's predictions will be accurate 100% of the time. False prophets in the Old Covenant were put to death for one false prediction. (Deuteronomy 18:17-22) True prophets were known by the accuracy of their prophesies and the signs and wonders they performed to prove their authority. (Ezekiel 33:33) Jesus also tells us another way to recognize false prophets is by their fruit. (Matthew 7:15-20)
The accuracy of biblical prophecy is uncanny. In Christ alone, over 300 prophesies came true. Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 predict the crucifixion of Christ in great detail. We have complete manuscripts of both dating to 200 B.C. and written confirmation by four gospel writers (provided their testimony is true) as to their fulfillment. Jesus quotes both as referring to himself.
One of the strongest proofs about Christ is the 100% fulfillment of the prophesies written about him, something not only atheists but Jews and Muslims need to consider.
So your first reason for being an atheist is extremely weak, based on false premises and biblical prophesy has been shown to be accurate, consistent and without contradiction.
Naulon
David, sorry for the multiple posts. It kept telling me that what I had written was too long and I kept trying again and again editing down what I had written not realizing they had actually been posted. You probably have control over the site so feel free to delete all but one.
Naulon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXe9eLcTq2Q
who needs an god that allows so much sh!t happen lol.
Then people answer me: its people stuff, not god-allowing stuff.
And then it means man have the right to do what ever he wants so, why the decalogue lol.
I absolutely agree with your reasoning.
If God is real, then I say, Hogwarts is as well!
I think that we should be born into a world without people trying to get us to join whichever religion they are a part of, then at age 18 there is a religion fair you can go to( similar to a job fair) and you pick out the one you want with a knowledgeable mind making the decision. Which brings me to the point of why do people spend years and years trying to get their child or fried to be part of their religion and then they turn athiest within a few months. Seems pretty obvious to me that athiesm is the the more sensible choice. Would love for you to comment back David, thanks for helping me to realize that we don't need guilt to be a good person and that we should all just Get along without thinkng that it is all some sort of game that we either win or lose in the end. I am a 14 yr old with a mind set on a life of atheism and freedom. . -Lucas
Hello David,
Thank you for you intelligent thought. I've shared these concerns with humanity's obsession with God for some time.
I hope it's okay for me to ask advice. I don't believe in God but respect any intelligent person who does. In fact my entire family believes including my wife who I have been married to for 2 years. We are thinking about having children soon and my wife thinks I believe in God. I haven't told her I do she just assumed I do.
I've always been okay keeping my non belief to myself but I wonder if what I'm doing by staying silent and letting her believe in God is wrong. If I love her should I try to make her think like me? Or is it okay for someone so close to me believe something so different?
We watched a show together called, "Through the Wormhole." in one episode they discovered believing in God (or a hereafter) was an "Evolved" ability because it helped early man remain calm and brave when faced with death which also made them better hunters and survivors. The show found a certain part of the brain had to activate for a person to hallucinate a "God" experience like seeing an angel of somesort. She made hmmmm and woah sounds that made it seem like something had clicked. Easy to understand the "invention" of religion if some of us are genetically prone to getting "high" on picturing a visit from god.
I feel like not calling myself an Athiest because then it seems like I'm declaring somesort of proof God doesn't exist.
The pledge of allegiance where we say "under god" doesnt bug me. It's just political. I think we have to respect that like how we also have to respect social security and medicaide coming out of my paycheck.
Regards, Andrew
Hi Andrew,
Thank you for the insightful post. There was so much to deal with here, I created a brand new post just to answer your question. Please review and comment here:
http://www.dogmadebate.com/2010/12/another-closet-atheist.html
Love/energy cannot be created or destroyed...no creator means we popped out of nothing?a seed grows into a blade of grass but a blade of grass will not grow...I don't have a name for it but something amazing exist everywhere in everything probably bigger then we can dream so we make up all kinds of names and dreams for it!
im also atheist ....as your young, parents teach u about god, and his story...and i like how someone said its just like how they told u about santa. they get you to believe in it and then tell u its not true...the bible is old and peeople kept carrying it on saying its true...i strongly believe thta if a harry potter book was wrote back then and people started to believe in it...theyd now believe in wizards and majic
I think the argument for this for me is a fairly simple one. And summed up in two simple question.
1. Do I want to live my life to be the best that I can, to love, to care and to make the world a happier place for everyone.
Yes
2. Even if there is a God, would I want one that would judge me and damn me for all eternity, If I lived my life as above.
No,
...and even if that god does exist, I want nothing to do with their kingdom.
Hey there, David.
I am commenting here, not because I responding to your article or any of the ensuing comments, but because I stumbled upon it on Google while looking for reasons to be atheist (hence your title name "Top 10 Reasons I'm Athiest") to deflect judgment and imposed inferiority of two buddies of mine that are adamantly Christian.
The two recently discovered that I am atheist (mostly because I keep quiet about it to avoid conflict and because of me not being able to back my belief up, but I'll get into that in just a bit), and they are now beating it into my head. Quite frankly, I don't give a (and excuse me for being vulgar) fuck! It's so irritating having to eat lunch with that non-stop that I dread going to lunch now. Can I just enjoy my lunch, please? Damn!
The only reason I opened my mouth up was because they were discussing how gays shouldn't get married, and I adamantly disagree with homosexuality inequality (mind you, I am a straight man, and I am in love with this girl to the point where it is consuming my life).
And also, if you haven't noticed yet, I am still in school, so I (and the two friends) are young (I am 17, and the other two are 16).
Because of my repugnance over this, I reacted on impulse and said that I hated religion, and that just made things worse.
Now, the two were advocating religious indoctrination (i.e. force religion to be taught at school) because it teaches morals (I personally believe that it REINFORCES them, as morals exist without religion, and even if they did 'come from' religion, man made it, so the morals it teaches comes from the writers' own thought and reason) and that it makes people happy -- gives them comfort, and I couldn't come up with anything to refute the last point and I was wondering if maybe you could answer that because I disagree with anything that represses personal freedom. Basically, he's saying that having beliefs on something hopeful and possible is better than not having them at all.
I mean, I have never really sat down and thought why I'm an atheist (or why theism is a man-made theory, rather) -- I just am -- and why I oppose religion for its intolerance -- I just do. I do not deliberately set out to attack religion or berate it in any way, but I do get offended when I am judged and criticized for my beliefs (which is hypocritical that they do that, but they continue to persist).
I'm sorry, but I have better things to do with my time than to listen to mumbo-jumbo about how there is historical evidence to prove Biblical stories and that "there's better odds to worship" (i.e. when you worship, you either go to Heaven or nothing happens, whereas when you don't worship, you either perish in Hell or nothing happens).
But what makes it even worse for me is that even though I grew up into a Christian family, my dad was always (and still is) too busy to take me to church, so I never went much and I never had the interest to look into the Bible. Thus, I have a very limited knowledge of it and thus my beliefs are considered to be questionable at best(which is fair, I admit).
So I reach out to you so that you can please help me counter this beleaguerment! Help me stop this nonsense! Basically, can you please explain why his rationale that religion is good and should be forced is faulty.
Thanks.
-Taylor
Taylor,
Your post was quite insightful. I can't thank you enough for dropping by. I've actually made your comment and my reply to you, my latest blog.
Here it is: http://www.dogmadebate.com/2011/02/why-am-i-atheist.html
David,
I tried showing one of the friends these ten points along with the 'unicorn' and 'dictionary' argument (origin of morals) from your response to my last post on one of your latest blogs, and he refuted these arguments with some of his own.
On the argument regarding the origin of morals, he said that while I was right in saying that morals don't come from the Bible like words don't come from the dictionary, but from the writer -- God. I tried explaining to him my argument on how morals are a part of human nature, and he said that you couldn't just wake up one day and decide that doing certain things were wrong -- you had to be taught them by either your parent, or from religion, or both. He said that if my parents didn't have to remind me and I didn't learn it from religion, then I must be a "super-human." I rolled my eyes not knowing what else to say.
On the point of God not being both omnipotent and benevolent when there is evil, he said that God allows evil because it allows us to grow. I raised one of my eyebrows, gave him a strange look, and, again, couldn't come up with anything to say.
On the point that God created us as 'sinners', he said that God didn't create us to be sinners -- we choose to be. Then I asked him why he would permit us free will, and he said that he wouldn't create us to like him automatically -- he wants us to like him for who he is on our own.
On the 'unicorn' argument, he said that there was historical evidence that proved God's existence and he listed a few things that I didn't exactly memorize -- I'm not a tape recorder. I had asked him to write them down so that I could analyze these at home, and he denied my request saying that I need to come up with my own thoughts an ideas. I wanted to snidely remark, "And you do?", but I controlled myself. I didn't want to get into an argument I know I couldn't win.
Of course, because I can hardly back myself up on my beliefs, they don't take me seriously (which is not all that bad because I didn't want to get into a debate in the first place) and it leads them to even more inferiority complex. I wish I could debate immensely better. :/
Thanks,
Taylor
Oh, and one more thing. I told him that he could debate with you and gave him the link to this page, so expect a comment from him soon.
-Taylor
I'm not an atheist but I don't believe in magic, mojo, spirits, spells, prayers, miracles, demons, ghosts, prophesy, blessings, luck or angels.
So if there's a God within that realm .. so be it.
I agree with everything said here. But I'm personally not a fan of capitalizing "atheism." I am an atheist. This implies that I lack a specific belief system that other people subscribe to. Capitalizing "atheism" makes it seem like Christianity or Islam, etc. Atheism is not a belief system to me. It is the lack of one. I have my own belief system, and many people may agree with most of what I believe in, and a few might agree with all of it, but it has no name.
Just thought I'd throw my opinion out there. I just don't like when atheists treat atheism like a religion, and I especially hate it when (not saying you're doing this) people attack religious people in the same way that religious people attack atheists. Being on the opposite end of the spectrum does not make you better. It only makes you contrary.
Hi Tylor. I'd like to take a shot at your friend's arguments.
On the point of morals - riddle me this: if morals come from "god", why are there different morals in different cultures? More to the point, why are there different morals between xian sects? Even more to the point, why are there different moral standards among xians of the same sect? Answer: morals are sociological in origin. A person gets their morals from their family, friends, people they respect and admire. This perfectly explains people having similar, but different moral standards. Getting morals from a sky fairy does not.
On the point of god allowing evil - anything you say can be argued. Xians will make up any nonsense to justify it. But it is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with proving or disproving their sky-fairy's existence. How can Santa Claus allow evil to exist?
Sinners - Again, this is a nonsensical argument. He created us with free will, but punishes us if we don't exercise that will as he chooses? Especially considering the fact that he had done everything possible to convince us that he does not exist. Ya, THAT'S a sign of a "loving and caring god". And he "sacrificed his son to save us"? Here are some questions to ask: How is human sacrifice NOT the sign of barbarians? If he wanted to forgive us, why not just do it? And, BTW, how was it a "sacrifice" if it was just him in human form and all that happened to him was to go to heaven?
God's existence - There is not a single solitary piece of evidence that any religion, let alone the xian or any of the abrahamic religions are valid. But there is tons of evidence that it is false. The bible is so full of contradictions (literally hundreds in each volume) and logical fallacies that nothing it says can be taken as true.
Let's look at the most glaring of these: the story of Noah. He built a boat 450 yards long, by 50 years wide, with 3 stories, each 10 feet tall. Okay, first, he got 2 of millions of species on a boat that small? Ah, but the argument is that there are only 30 thousand species that he "saved". Okay, so he got 60 THOUSAND animals the size of cows, hippos, elephants and giraffes on a boat that big? Along with food for a year for all of those animals. That would be hundreds of TONS of food. Second, how did the animals get to the boat? We're talking about animals from Australia, the Americas, Japan, all the various islands. And a lot of these animals can't swim, especially across the ocean. Not only that, but after the flood subsided, they managed to get back to their own lands. Third, where did all the water come from and go? It would have required something like 100 times the volume of water that exists in the world. But god just created the water, right? Well, if he could do that, why make Noah go through all that when all he had to do was recreate the animals. Or better yet, just create a plague that would have wiped out just the humans. Or better yet, just expose himself and order people to act the way he wanted.
BTW, I loved the comment that he had "proof" of god's existence, but refused to provide that proof. Just goes to show that he really doesn't have any.
Here's another question that baffles at least the fundies that think the earth is 6k years old. Where did all the other religions come from? If Adam and Eve lived only 6000 years ago, and god talked to people all the time, how did the thousands of other religions get started? People wouldn't have even imagined all those other religions, if it was so obvious that Yahweh was the only true god.
Speaking of Adam and Eve, what exactly is the basis for our "sinning" nature? Our desire for knowledge, of course! Knowledge and thought destroys religion, so it MUST be a sin to actually use your intelligence. That is even what xians say to this day. If you use your mind and think with reason, you go to hell. The way to heaven is to avoid thought and reason at all cost. Xians use the word "faith" like it's a virtue. "Faith" is forcing yourself to believe something despite lack of, or massive evidence against, evidence. So, supposedly, god gave us our intelligence, and then is going to "punish" us for using said intelligence. Did I mention that this is a "loving and caring" god?
The next thing to ask is, who is in charge of the "conspiracy" against xianity? How is it that the scientific community has managed to convince every scientist in the world to make up evidence against a 6000 year old earth? And why is it that the ONLY "scientist" that dispute the fact that the earth is 4.5 billion years old just happen to only be xians? Wouldn't you think that there would be non-xian scientist that produced evidence that confirmed this hypothesis?
Speaking of "hypotheses", and hopefully before someone spouts the nonsense that "evolution is only a theory" (I say hopefully, because I didn't read all the posts, but what I scanned, I didn't see anyone mention evolution), I'd like to point out there is a HUGE difference between a SCIENTIFIC THEORY and a theory that most xians can put together. A Scientific Theory is a commonly acknowledged account, backed by evidence and a sound hypothesis that is used to explain a Scientific Fact. Gravity is one, evolution is another. It is a proved, observable FACT that evolution exists. The "theory of evolution" simply tries to explain WHY and HOW evolution happens. The "theory" that god exists is not a Scientific Theory, but a unfounded, invalid Scientific hypothesis. it is wishful thinking by superstitious people who refuse to think for themselves.
I was a Christian, myself. Right up until my pastor brought up the "Evolution is only a theory" argument during a sermon for the billionth time while I was in high school, and I, being the good budding scientist I was, quietly pointed out to him after the service that that's not a valid point, as scientific theory isn't the same as conjecture.
His words to me rocked me to my core; "Yes, but they don't need to know that. It sounds convincing, and that's all we need."
Haven't been in a church since, in five years.
Anonymous,
You may find this interesting, but as my recent book starts off, a conversation with a preacher immediately following my baptism is actually what catapulted me into atheism, hence the title "Baptized Atheist."
My personal thought is that many preachers don't actually believe. I know that's a stretch, but I think many of them know better, but they've spent so much time, money, school, and other efforts to develop that career, that it's basically all they know.
It's a position of power, authority, and leadership, and coming clean about their skepticism would mean losing all of that.
So why do I make such an assertion? Because preachers have read, re-read, and studied the Bible inside and out. They know the contradictions. They know the anti-scientific rhetoric. They know all the things that ultimately made me atheist.
Dimondwoof,
Thanks for your excellent post!
I think this is one of the strongest arguments ever presented on this site, and I thank you for it... "If Adam and Eve lived only 6000 years ago, and god talked to people all the time, how did the thousands of other religions get started? People wouldn't have even imagined all those other religions, if it was so obvious that Yahweh was the only true god."
Excellent work!
To your point about knowledge, I have a section in my book that deals with that specifically. The section heading is "Thou Shalt Not Know," and tackles the metaphor used in the bible which punishes all human-kind for 2 people seeking knowledge of good and evil.
My book is called "Baptized Atheist," and is available at Amazon.
Good list. A lot of these points are things I too use in discussions quite often. The biggest thing for me being an atheist, is just the simple fact that there is no proof, at all. I don't tend to believe things that have no evidence to back it up.
If I were called to come before god for my final judgment...
He would not require me to bow...he would greet me as a peer. He would not know pride.
He would not demand I love him. He would not know lust.
He would not demand my devotion. He would not know greed.
He would not resent my love of others over him. He would not know envy.
He would not lose faith in my soul. He would not know sloth (despair/acedia)
He would not require my offer of eternal praise. He would not know gluttony.
He would not condemn me to an eternity of pain. He would not know wrath.
Just sayin'
I'd like to add a few points to this discussion if I may.
First, several people have posted that they believed that David was a genius and a superior debater. I have not seen enough from David on this page to suggest either of these. He seems to have a firm grasp on the topic and that is what most people are sensing. (This is no slight to you, David, I'm sure you would not consider yourself a genius, just a thoughtful and caring humanist that is moving the world the right direction)
I often hear the argument from theists that Atheists and Agnostics "think they are so smart" and that they are "arrogant in their beliefs." The fact of the matter is Atheism is a vastly superior position for debate. We live in a world that is governed by science and laws. We can explain them with science if we look at the evidence. Atheism, freethinking and skepticism are the defense of the sum knowledge of all mankind over the ages. Theism on the other hand is the blind faith in a specific and usually ancient and out-dated mythological belief system. You do not have to be a genius or a skillful debater to dominate in an argument of atheism versus religion. Atheists not only have the high ground, they have bullet proof vests and sniper rifles. It is not a fair contest because the position of the theists is one of willful ignorance and blind following.
Before I go further however let me speak to the "arrogant" side of this. I can sense the audience of believers cringing at words like "blind" and "ignorance." One of the great problems in these debates is the tendency and necessity for theists to take arguments against their faith personally. If theists did not take such things personally they would find it was very easy to not believe in their religion; just as they find it very easy to downplay the validity of thousands of religions that are not their own. This tendency comes from indoctrination. Again, I feel I must apologize for the use of a word. "Indoctrination" is the best word to describe why theists believe the things that they do and why they believe them so wholeheartedly.
Although the methodology is different in all religions, people are usually made to understand from an early age that there will be unspeakable punishments in the afterlife for not believing in the manner that their parents believe. Furthermore, children realize very early on that they will be shunned by their family and friends if they do not believe. The best word for this is "brainwashing". Again a word with a negative connotation. I feel I must apologize for using these terms, but in all fairness, theists are the ones following blindly indoctrinating their children through brainwashing so perhaps they are the ones that should apologize.
They can start by apologizing to their children. As an atheist I do not tell my children that there is no god or gods. I tell them to read what they want from any religion. Read what they want of science and learn as much as they can about the world and make their decisions when they are adults. I have no doubt that in doing so my children will grow up to be atheists or agnostics. Now THAT is faith. With parental and familial pressure absent from a child's religious teaching they are free to look at all things equally and quickly realize which choice makes the most sense.
Theists do not give their children that choice. By telling their children about things like hell and damnation as a result of even considering not believing in God Christians commit a form of mental torture that causes children (and the adults that they grow into) to mentally recoil at the idea of attempting to look at their religion through the eyes of others. This mind game creates adults that have lost the ability to be empathetic towards people of other viewpoints. They see people with different beliefs as soulless, and pity them and try to save them, but they never truly attempt to see things from their point of view. To do so might send them straight to hell.
I do not find myself or any other atheist or agnostic to be more intelligent than the average theist. The difference is only that we were not indoctrinated or the indoctrination didn't take (Almost any atheist that has converted from religion will tell you about their eye opening experience that broke the spell for them. It takes a long time, ostracizes them from friends and family and is a long painful journey.) My point is this. If I had been raised in the same situation as many theists, it probably wouldn't matter what my IQ was or how many books I read. The meme of religion is strong and it has evolved over time to take a death grip on the human psyche that is difficult if not impossible to escape. I would be a Christian or Muslim or Hindu if my parents had not had the foresight to let me make my decisions in life before telling me theirs. So don't take attacks on religion as personal attacks. They are not attacks on you personally or even your parents. The seeds were planted generations ago. Atheists do not think that Theists are ignorant or inferior. They just know that they have been threatened into a unrealistic world view. If Atheists thought you were stupid they wouldn't try so hard to change your minds. They have hope for all mankind.
A few shorter points. I can not understand why so many people do not understand or willingly ignore the "need for a creator" issue. If God created the universe who created God? If God has always been then you are saying that things do not need a creator. So why won't you accept that the universe too has always been. This has always been a strange argument for me because it is defeated so effortlessly but people continue to debate it.
As for people saying they feel God or a presence. This is a scientifically explainable occurrence. Our brains are hardwired to have a conscience otherwise civilization would not develop. We are hardwired with empathy. So are some other animals. elephants cry when they see dead elephants and mourn the loss. It is evolutionary superior to be empathetic to your race. It is a tool for getting ahead in life. If we are all bread to look out for each other than the species prospers. That being said we are also hardwired to feel the presence of others. There is a part of the brain that when stimulated will cause people to believe that someone is looking over their shoulder. Even if they have visible or auditory evidence to the contrary. It is a part of the brain that we associate with being watched. It is the part of the brain that shows activity when people pray. It is the part of the brain that lets us imagine our loved ones are with us even after they die. It is the part of the brain that fires off its neurons when big brother is watching and when we think about Santa seeing us when we are sleeping and knowing when we are awake. It has served us well as a means of knowing how to act when someone might be watching. It has failed us when it comes to religion.
I love you all, we are all brothers and sisters.
Timothy, The Bible Belt Atheist.
I love you man. I was lucky enough to grow up with parents who truly allowed me to craft my own beliefs. They NEVER pushed any religion on me and simply let me figure things out for myself. I first realized I didn't believe in god(Yaweh) when I was around eight years old and I have never looked back. Obviously I realized I didn't believe in any other gods soon after I decided the Christian god was a myth. For some reason it was always clear to me how much of a farce religion was. I don't mean to offend with that last statement but it's how I've always felt. I think it's probably because of all the contradictions and the enormous lack of evidence. I just couldn't ignore the huge red flags going off all around me which spelled out RELIGION IS ABSURD. Man created god and has subsequently used him to control and suppress the ignorant. I feel very sad when I think about all of the harm religion has caused mankind and that no matter what I do I will die in a world still dominated by religion. The one quote I think sums up the best reason to be an atheist goes something like "Isn't blind faith an ironic gift to give to the supposed creator of human intelligence?". I read that somewhere during my early research on atheism and it has always stuck with me. I love the freedom atheism has given me to live my life as a person without delusion. I hate militant atheists but sometimes I get extremely heated and upset during debates with the religious, or even when I'm reading comments on a site like this. I wish there was something I could do to help people break free of their burden. I think you're on the right track but sometimes I can't help but think there's absolutely no getting through to believers. They have been too thoroughly brainwashed and have been living too long with their beliefs to simply abandon them now no matter how much evidence they are inundated with. I get it, life is a giant mystery, death is scary, it's cruel that we have to live in this beautiful world for such a short time and all the while know that we will die. Religion gives people hope and I get that, I might even be able to accept it if it wasn't for all of the atrocities that are committed in the name of religion. It separates us, makes us hate each other, kill each other, dismiss each other. I mean does ANYONE truly deserve to BURN FOR ALL ETERNITY? How can a human being seriously be OK with the knowledge that another human being might endure an eternity of torture for something as harmless as having a different opinion than they do? I realize that's a generalization and not all religious people believe atheists will burn but most of them believe some people will and I just can't wrap my head around that. I know this is a long post and it's doesn't have great flow, more of a stream of consciousness but I wanted to get a lot of my ideas out there so that maybe someone going through what I went through (closet atheists as you called them) will see that there are others out there who doubt like they do. I felt like an outsider for most of my life because I was an atheist at such a young age in a world full of religion but recently I have found people like you to talk to and share ideas with and for that I am very grateful.
I think you are noble in your statements and i respect that. But life comes down to two people. Number one; the person who knows God in their mind and rejects him in their heart and two; the person who knows God in their mind and accepts him in his heart.
That being said, with all due respect i dont believe you have educated yourself on Christianity as much as you think. For your reason number one; essentially why has god not sent any more prophets? We are his prophets. The world has changed so much and so has God. Maybe we aren't running around and healing men of leprosy but things have changed and evolved. Now to further that argument that people have evolved out of the ocean or from apes where is the hard truth. If you ask any expert they will tell you that the fossils they have have to large of gaps in them for it to have been an evolving thing. Also why did we stop evolving?
Secondly for your point number three, every person is created by God to worship him. It is innate inside every one of us to worship something.
An Atheist is not one that refuses to read religious doctrine; it is often one who reads too many.-----It goes on to say that these people know in their mind that there is a creator but denies it in their heart.
Number six. We are not created sinners but yet born into sin. very big difference. When God created Adam and Eve he created them perfect they "Chose" to sin.. he did not make them sinners. Just like when Jesus was in the Desert for 40 days and 40 nights Satan offered Jesus the opportunity to Chose to rule all of that instead of worshiping God. He chose not to. He also chose not to jump off the cliff to test God. its all about Choices. For number 7 and 8 like i said we are born perfect into a world of sin that WE Chose... Maybe it wasnt you or me directly but i guarantee if you or i were Adam we would have done the same thing. Babies are born perfect but corrupted by the sinful nature of this world. It also prove this in the Bible.
Again God created us as curious beings eager to worship something.
Thank you for your time,
God Bless
Dear David,
I really have to commend you on your tremendous effort to respond to as many comments as you have. I am literally blown away that you have kept up with them and responded to nearly everyone that you have. You are insanely patient. Dealing with people who won't accept logic, reason, or evidence is tedious at best and infuriating at worst.
For the record (and I'm not sure you've mentioned it because there are SO many comments that you've had to respond to that I didn't have time to read every single one), I've seen a couple people claim that the christian god is correct because he died for our sins and resurrected, and then ascended into heaven, and that no other god ever did that. That is insanely entirely, utterly, unresearchedly incorrect. In fact, Mithra who you have repeatedly referenced was: born on december 25, born of virgin birth, visited by 3 kings at birth, a teacher by his teenage years, sacrificed, born again after 3 days, and ascended. Sounds familiar. There are at least 4 other gods in religious mythology who have very similar stories, whose stories date centuries to MILLENNIA before the christ story. Horus was another one of them. I wish I could remember some of the others, but I may have to just get back to you on them.
It's just insane how many people think they are worshipping some sort of original character, but it just ends up being a character passed down through various ages and cultures, including the Greeks, Romans, Hindu, etc., sometimes dating back as far as 1800 BC.
Another thing I'd like to add, is that you had responded to someone calling themselves Ariel way earlier in the comments (i think it was Ariel) who had said that she wasn't just another brainwashed follower because she had sensed god's presence. Well, to her I would say: did you choose your own religion, or did you adopt the religion of your parents? Did your parents choose their religion, or did they adopt the religion of THEIR parents? How far down the family tree do you have to evaluate the persistence of a single religion and its subsets (if your parents were protestant, and you converted to catholicism, it doesn't count, sorry) before you realize that maybe you have been brainwashed, and that you think you felt god's presence because you wanted to?
Fact is, most people DO NOT make a choice about their religion, and it is really sad to me that they argue so fervently that they made an informed choice about it, that it is right, and that they just know.
....
Someone else said earlier some backwards argument similar but not verbatim to: if they said there was some weird fruit like a black orange that smelled like grapes (or whatever), that it would be stupid for someone like an atheist to say that it didn't exist, because to prove it we would have to scour the whole Earth for it and show that it wasn't anywhere on Earth. But they could just show you and be right about it. To this person I say: the burden of proof lies on the shoulders of those who make the claim, and that your analogy is actually damaging and backwards to what you're trying to prove. The real argument is, in a logical world, you have to prove that something DOES exist, not that it doesn't. Because in your world, if I say that there is a zebra-striped man-eating living breathing flying mattress that can create gold by saying the alphabet backwards, that is JUST AS VALID as saying there is a god. You can prove their isn't. All hail the flying spaghetti monster while we are at it.
I MUST digress.
An atheist myself, I find it harder and harder every single day to listen to people argue for religion. They always take the stance that we CAN'T prove it DOESN'T exist, and that is an absolutely escapist view on the subject. At first, I tried to be respectful about my arguments with the religious, and my thoughts were absolutely not respected in turn. So at the moment I toil with the choice on whether to keep trying to be respectful, or taking the Richard Dawkins approach of just being blunt and truthful about it, and not worry whether I offend (not that he went out of his way to offend. I'm sure we'll hear people say that he did). It's just that I know (not believe), that more lives have been taken, and more violence delivered, more inequality caused, by religion than any other force in the history of mankind. People will be sure to argue that greed of money or power has, but those people are forgetting the Spanish Inquisition, the crusades, catholic/protestant conflicts in Ireland, the expansion of the holy roman empire, the persecution of Jews throughout history up to and including the 2nd world war, the wars over the "holy" land which continue to this day, the persecution of christians in rome, the persecution of non-christians by christians after being declared the religion of Rome, Islamic expansion, and thousands upon thousands more religious conflicts which take up the extreme bulk of history books.
I wish I had prepared this more like an essay for you instead of the stream of thought that it has become, but I hope you read this feeling my respect for your diligence in responding to people, my frustration in dealing with them myself, my dilemma of dealing with them in the future, and a couple of pointers in useful atheist arguments yourself.
I wish you the best in continuing to have a meaningful and positively impacting existence.
-Mike Gibson, Indianapolis, IN.
If god created Adam and Eve as perfect then they would never have sinned. Sinning cancels out the perfect. Being perfect would also keep them from being corrupted from a sinful world. The rest of your argument is just as screwy and invalid. Please try again.
I just read all of this, and I'd just like to say I am very glad to see that there are more 'free thinkers' out there. I've always considered myself as an Agnostic, because I believe that there might be some universal entity out there that is somewhat responsible for all life. By this definition, I could consider our Sun, as a holy entity, for it is the true giver of life here on our planet.
Though, I've heard from many atheist that being an Agnostic is just me being an atheist without balls to say so. Although my understanding of an Atheist is one who does not believe in the existence in a god or higher power. Essentially, making a claim that there is NO god, point blank. I've gone with the Agnostic route, because I believe personally it is arrogant to say there is NO god, but equally arrogant to say there is. There isn't prove on either side that can actually be taken into consideration. I'm just curious what your take is on Agnostics/Atheist differences.
I am with you 100% that we should live for mankind, improve our world, make it better than how it was when we got here. I think religion is a poison to society that separates us and prevents any cohesive movement forward. I believe if we came together as one, human kind as a whole would strive forward at an exponential growth. Unfortunately, our boundaries of 'belief' and 'religion' prevent any such thing.
Hope to get a reply from you. I'm a Computer Science senior in college, and although I don't share the psychology side with you, I still have that reason and logic part of my brain ticking. :)
Thanks,
Brian
Dear Anonymous the Nth (This seems to be a very common name among respondents on this site.).
I respectfully suggest that it is in fact _you_ who have a lot of learn about Christianity - and about other religions as well.
I can see that you are still at the stage of uncritically repeating what you have been told to believe by the small circle of people who are important to you at this stage of your life. The ideas you are expressing are typical of those that are also uncritically accepted by people who have been influenced or indoctrinated by a certain brand of Christian fundamentalists from the United States Bible Belt. They are not universally accepted as "true", even among fundamentalist Christians in the United States, and are certainly not representative of Christians living in other parts of the world. It seems that your known world is still too small to have learned that.
For example:
"We are his prophets".
Bald assertion without proof.
An unusual belief among the bulk of the world’s Christians.
"The world has changed so much and so has God".
Bald assertion without proof
The idea of a changing god is very unusual among believers of the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Mormonism). It is inconsistent with the Jewish sacred writings and any of the several versions of the Christian Bible or their translations. Malachi 3:6 - "For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." [There are four surviving versions of the Christian Bible, Catholic, Protestant, Coptic and Orthodox (I think). All of them have a different selection of books. The King James is an Olde English translation of the Protestant Version. It also happens to a relatively inferior translation with a lot of serious errors in it, including the addition of spurious text inserted by scribes and copiests, such as the inclusion of a resurrection story at the end of the original gospel story.] It is inconsistent with the formulated creeds of many versions of Christianity, for example, the Westminster Catechism. It is inconsistent with the Islamic beliefs about God. It is inconsistent with the views about gods expressed by most other religions.
“Every person is created by God to worship him. It is innate inside every one of us to worship something.”
Bald assertion without proof.
This is not supported by scientific evidence. There are plenty of instances of humans who have no innate drive to worship something. Worshiping is a learned behavior. Some people never learn it.
These people know in their mind that there is a creator but denies it in their heart.
Bald assertion that implies the ability to mind-read.
Neither you, nor the people who persuaded you that such a statement is true, have any ability to read minds, so neither you nor they have any valid evidence that this ridiculous state of affairs exists. The point that has been made by the site owner (and others here) is that atheists can find no valid reason to believe that a Creator of the Universe exists. This idea is not at all “self-evident” when carefully considered. The argument implies that a highly complex super-developed mind existed externally in no space or time without the need to be created, just so that it could be there to create everything else. It is far easier and a lot more plausible to believe that something extremely simple exists eternally and caused the universe, (such as the energy potentials of quantum physics that have been observed to flicker in and out of existence from “nothing”.) Or that the universe, itself, is eternal and just keeps recreating itself. Adding a complex sentient being into the mix is unnecessary and problematic.
Atheists do not willfully deny something that they actually believe to be true; that would be both stupid and intellectually dishonest. It is also intellectually dishonest to try to go on believing in something for which you realize you have no valid or compelling proof, even if this means going through the painful process of accepting that your mind has been deceiving you with cognitive distortions, false attributions and comforting delusions for years. The choice is between the acceptance of honesty that might be uncomfortable and deliberate self-delusion that provides a very uneasy and precarious comfort level provided one can find the energy required to keep up the mental walls and feed the repression mechanisms.
Believing that there is a “boss” or an overall authority figure is an immature level of mental and moral development that is usually outgrown well before the age of 16. (See the Kohlberg Scale of Moral Development. http://yalb.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/what-does-it-mean-to-be-a-moral-person/)
“When God created Adam and Eve he created them perfect they "Chose" to sin”.
If your version of god created perfect people then they could, by definition, not chose to do evil. You have to do some very nimble semantic gymnastics involving word redefinition and special meanings given to specific phrases, in order to make it even appear to make sense.
The technical term for that is “sophism”. While the original term was used for philosophers who deliberately set out argue for a point of view in the face of opposing evidence, it is now used to describe what is probably largely unconsciously done by most theological apologists. Just because these people are “nice people” does not mean that they are not the victims of semantic mind-tricks and delusions that serve to protect their self-esteem and socially reinforced world-view. We are _all_ subject to such distortions. This is a good example of what Neil de Grasse Tyson refers to as evidence for “stupid design”. The scientific method was invented to protect the pursuit of knowledge from such inbuilt human failings. While religion provides answers that must not be questioned, science provides questions that must be answered.
If you recall correctly (and I encourage you to actually read the text in a modern English translation of your version of the Christian Bible), Eve and Adam ate the forbidden fruit before they had knowledge of the difference between “good” and “evil”. That makes them technically “not guilty” in any justice system that cares about human rights and fairness. Their “crime”, according to the Bible, is that they developed a knowledge of the difference between good and evil just like their creator god. If that is a “crime” then it is a very strange one. No human can choose to do “good” as distinct from “evil” if they have no idea what the terms mean.
We come to a whole new ball game when we consider that “good” and “evil” have so few universally agreed upon elements. If there is an ultimate and unchanging standard of “goodness” history has shown that humans are incapable of discovering it. As for Christians, since the Bible god cannot show consistency, what hope do they have of correcting figuring out what this god actually thinks is moral in any given circumstance? This confusion is at the root of many religious wars and Christian brutalities.
By the way, the Bible says that this god created evil (Isaiah 45:7). How do you reconcile that with a Being who is supposed to be perfectly good?
“Satan offered Jesus the opportunity to Chose to rule all of that instead of worshiping God. He chose not to. He also chose not to jump off the cliff to test God.”
Does this mean that you do not accept that Jesus was part of your version of god? This would make sense, since he is also credited with praying to this God on a number of different occasions, and why would he pray to himself? In general, he went off to pray (to himself?) by himself, and encouraged his disciples to also pray in isolation from others rather than in a group. Do you practice that?
By the way, the Bible says that this god created Hell and put Satan in it. So what is Satan doing appearing all over the world “testing” people? Did he escape? Is god not powerful enough to keep him in Hell prison? Does Satan how the ability to take breaks from his eternal screaming so that he can turn his mind to harming humans, rather than the god who is torturing him? Psychologists know that torturing someone is likely to create just the kind of personality that would be most likely to hate others and try to harm them. Is that what passes for moral with your version of god? Why didn’t your version of god just blink Satan painlessly and humanely out of existence so that he could not wreak havoc?
This all looks like evidence that the Biblical version of the god you have been taught to believe exists, is a really nasty piece of work. This is not supportive of the usual 21st century belief that the Jewish Creator god is a loving god. Did you know that the first give books of the Bible combine stories about two gods: Yahweh, the Middle Eastern desert war god and El, the Babylonian head of the pantheon of gods, of which Yahweh is a somewhat disgraced member, and seems to be the model for Lucifer who is later combined with Satan. After the first few books, the El god is dropped and the Yahweh god becomes the god of Israel. It is the Yahweh god who is supposed to have raped a Jewish virgin, foisted his care onto her fiance Joseph and then had the human part of his son tortured and killed, abandoning him during the process. (Jesus the man said from his cross: My god, my god, why have you forsaken me?)
Not a nice god. Even if he actually existed, why would anyone want to worship this kind of a monster unless they had been taught not to think too deeply about the stories they were being told about him or were too young or too frightened to consider the implications?
You are wise to remain anonymous. Questions such as the ones you have asked here simply make you appear to be foolish, ill-educated and probably still in your impressionable years. This is the unfortunate result of blindly believing the ideas put forward by personable, persuasive but ignorant people whom you like, rather than by scientists and other professionals who work in the relevant areas and who actually know what they are talking about. One of the most important lessons of maturation is to recognize that people you like, no matter how sincere they may be, are ignorant in many areas on which they pronounce and quite unaware of the extent of their ignorance. Pretty much like you are, right now. Nice person, just not sufficiently, broadly or critically educated in the subject on which you are pontificating.
It is both normal and necessary for survival that humans believe everything that they are told without question in their early years. Once they are old enough to take care of themselves this mind-set is counter-productive and dangerous. It is then that humans learn to reason and question. There is a big surge in cell maturation in the frontal lobes of the brain around the age of 16. These are the areas involved in high level critical thinking. You need to exercise these regions in order to develop them properly; otherwise you will remain a rational child. The problem with religions and ideologies is that they do everything in their power to prevent humans from using and developing these brain powers. When this fails they use threats to encourage the person to build reason-proof walls around their irrational belief systems and then reward them by calling this doubt-proofing mechanism “faith” and giving it a positive spin. This “slight of mind” also directs the person away from the otherwise obvious realization that “belief without reason and protected from critical analysis” is a very bad thing in every other part of their life. The technical term for this phenomenon is “encapsulated delusion”.
The next steps in cognitive and emotional development for you are to critically examine everything that you have accepted on faith in your younger years and everything you are asked to believe without evidence from here on.
Develop your frontal lobe brain power. Take every chance you have to practice thinking critically! Get moving! Start now!
@David.
Thanks for your work. Great stuff.
I apologize for the temporary monopoly of your site with such a long reply to one of your respondents.
- A fellow colleague.
@ Rosemary,
You said :
Questions such as the ones you have asked here simply make you appear to be foolish, ill-educated and 'probably still in your impressionable years'.
I've found it almost impossible to differentiate between the poor, abused kids that are force fed this crap, and the mindless drones that do the feeding!
They are posting on a forum about atheism so they are all fair targets. At the worst, it may hurt the kids feelings so they do some research to give a good answer, and thus find a little truth, or it's fundies who are NEVER going to change.
I've given up trying to help anyone with their religious choices. It's either a personal choice by themselves to look into their beliefs, or they are not going to listen to a single word that is said.
Harsh? Yes. Sad? Very.
But the only ones that can free these poor minds are themselves. We can help if they ask the way, but it's like trying to stop a glacier moving in trying to change their minds. Too many years of mum & dad telling them that 'God' will be upset if they do something bad to fight against. They need to make a RATIONAL choice before anything we say will ever matter to them.
Regards,
Ph0x
My only problem is I feel as someone who considers myself a follower of science, I can't absolutely state as fact that there is no God or that any particular religion is totally false. It's simple the overwhelmingly likely theory. And I have a problem with other atheists stating those things as simple fact, because it sends a message to non-atheists that their belief is fact, too, and that they are correct in claiming it so.
@Mike Gibson
Thank you very much for the kind words. In fact, we are very much on the same page, as nearly all of your arguments are listed in my recent book "Baptized Atheist," on Amazon. It's good to know there are many others out there.
Thank you, Mike.
@Brian
Thanks for the comments, and for giving me an opportunity to chime in.
I sometimes joke that agnostics are atheists with an insurance policy (LOL), but in all seriousness, that policy would be VOID based on the bible (Matthew 7:21).
It comes down to this:
1) Above all, you are a Secular Humanist. Thank you for your dedication to mankind. I happen to be in that species, and appreciate your unconditional support.
2) If you truly believe that something powerful created the conditions for life but doesn't intervene in daily activities, by definition, you are deist.
3) If you think it is plausible that some powerful being created life and may or may not monitor and intervene, you are by definition, agnostic.
4) Regardless if you are deist, or agnostic, your life is still atheistic. That's because atheist means 'without a theism.' You are not theist. You have no theology. You do not have a name for a god you worship. You are without that belief.
5) Putting names and classifications of rational people aside, you are not a Christian. So yes, we need you to stand up with us and say "Do not teach religion in our schools." Do not alter historical documents like the Pledge of Allegiance to insert your god." "Do not allow a particular god to be mentioned in the motto of a secular, free nation." "Do not allow a particular god to be printed on the money of millions of people who do not believe in it."
More than your title, we need your voice.
David,
I would like to commend you on your ability to argue things with a logical stand point. I am 20 years old and have been lucky enough to have been born to parents whose religious beliefs were never forced on me. Now, I find myself at a point where I am struggling with what I do believe in. I can say upon reading these comments it unexpectantly put some things into perspective. I am inspired to be more educated on the things I do not know, so when it comes to making a decision I can plant my feet firmly in my beliefs…not because I was told to, but because I understand what it is I am (or not) putting my “faith” in, and know that I have done so after looking at all the possibilities. I’d also like to add for those of you arguing for the religious side of things…. I have yet to find an argument that isn’t judgmental or plain rude I guess…If you believe (and strongly believe) in a greater power great, I understand it must be frustrating to have someone logically argue against your beliefs. That being said, the frustration you may feel towards David or other atheists is the same kind frustration atheist must feel in trying to understand why people would believe in a concept that doesn’t make sense to them. Doesn’t that sort of put you on even ground? He is simply arguing his beliefs the same way you might argue yours and to somehow get it confused that you’re beliefs make you better, or smarter, or truer even, is well…. a little pompous. Correct me if I’m wrong but don’t most religions try to promote humbleness, and I don’t know the golden rule?
Kaila
I'd like to point out that the scale is NOT like this: Theist - Agnostic - Atheist.
You can be an agnostic theist, just as you can be an agnostic atheist too. "Agnostic" is simply a term that says that you don't claim to KNOW whether there is a god or not. The opposite to that would be "gnostic", where you do claim to know. In other words, answering the question "are you an atheist?" with "no, I'm agnostic" is kind of like answering "what is 2+2?" with "chocolate". Just saying.
Myself I'm an agnostic atheist. I don't think there is a good but I'd never say that's the absolute truth.
a few gods we atheists don't believe in that start with the letter "A":
Abassi, Abeona, Abgal, Abuk, Abundantia, Ac Yanto, Acan, Acat, Achelois, Achelous, Acolmiztli, Acolnahuacatl, Adamanthea, Adeona, Adimurti, Adityas, Adonis, Adrammelech, Adrasteia, Adroa, Adroanzi, Aegea, Aengus, Aeolus, Aequitas, Aether, Aethon, Aetna, Africus, Agastya, Age, Aghora, Aglaea, Agni, Agoue, Agrotora, Agwe, Ah Bolom Tzacab, Ah Cancum, Ah Chun Caan, Ah Chuy Kak, Ah Ciliz, Ah Cun Can, Ah Cuxtal, Ah Hulneb, Ah Kin, Ah Kumix, Ah Uinicob, Ah Mun, Ah Muzencab, Ah Peku, Ah Puch, Ah Tabai, Ah Uincir Dz'acab, Ah Uuc Ticab, Aha Njoku, Ahau-Kin, Ahmakiq, Ahulane, Ahura Mazda, Ahti, Aida-Wedo, Ailuros, Aine, Airmid, Aita, Aizan, Aizen-Myoo, Aja, Aja, Ajbit, Aji-Suki-Taka-Hi-Kone, Ajok, Aker, Akhushtal, Akkan, Akras, Alaghom Naom, Alauwaimis, Alcyone, Alecto, Alectrona, Alemonia
Allah, Alom, Alpan, Alpheus, Ama-arhus, Amaethon, Ama-No-Minaka-Nushi, Amaterasu, Amathaunta, Amatsu Mikaboshi, Amatsu-Kami, Ama-Tsu-Mara, Amaunet, Ambika, Ame-No-Mi-Kumari, Ame-No-Wakahiko, Ament, Amida, Amimitl, Ammavaru, Ammon, Am-No-Tanabata-Hime, Amphitrite, Amun, Amun-Re, Amurru, An, Anala, Ananke, Anansi, Anantesa, Anatu, Andhrimnir, Andjety, Angerona, Angita, Angitia, Angrboda, Anhur, Ani, Anila, Ankt, Anna Perenna, Annamurti, Annapurna, Anouke, Ansa, Anteros, Antevorte, Anti, Antu, Anu, Anubis, Anuket, Anumati, Anunitu, Anuradha, Apa, Apam Napat, Apep, Apet, Aphrodite, Apis, Aplu, Apo, Apocatequil, Apollo, Apsaras, Apsu, Apu Illapu, Apu Punchau, Aquilo, Aradia, Aranyani, Arazu, Ardhanari, Ardhanarisvara, Arebati, Arensnuphis, Ares, Arianrhod, Artemis, Artume, Arundhati, Aruru, Aryman, Asa, Asclepius, Ashnan, Aslesa, Astamatara, Astraea, Astrild, Asuras, Asvayujau, Asvins, Aten, Athena, Aticandika, Atl, Atla, Atlas, Atlaua, Atri, Atum, Audhumla, Aurora, Auster, Avatars of Vishnu, Aya, Ayyappan, Azaca....
I could keep going all the way to Yahweh, it's quite a list.
Just for a little humor, here's some reasons why the biblical God is kind of an a-hole:
Help actresses win awards...Do nothing about world hunger.
Create homosexuals...Ban homosexuality.
No Worshipping Idols!....Hang cross in your home.
Omnipotent, Perfect....JEALOUS!!!
Create world for humans....70% salt water.
Unconditional love....with conditions.
I made you that way...I hate you because of it.
Forbid the eating of pork....make pork delicious.
Born in non-Christian country...DOOMED!
KNOW EVERYTHING.....prevent nothing.
AIDS is killing millions worldwide...NO CONDOMS!!
Thou shalt not kill....CRUSADES!!
Demand Adam and Eve follow a rule that requires the understanding of right and wrong....Don't give Adam and Eve the knowledge of right and wrong.
Children eat apple...4,000 year old grudge.
Create man with foreskin....Command him to cut it off.
Jews are my chosen people....HOLOCAUST!!
I gave you free will...Use it exactly as I command you to.
(ok, admittedly some of these are based on opinion or distortions of textual fact, but it's all in good fun...for me.)
I don't currently have time to read all of the comments unfortunatly. A few of the points I want to speak on are, first I noticed that some people were discussing that history proves what the bible says. To that I say that the only way that history proves anything more than that someone said something, is if we understand every reaction that takes place as a result of an action, and to be able to calculate all of the actions that led up to the present moment. As we all know we do not know the reactions to every action, nor do we have anywhere near the ability to compute it all. (Realistically we can't prove that someone wrote or said anything either)
Secondly I would like to say to those who accuse atheists of attacking religion. In most cases atheists come up with these views (and post them on THEIR blogs or speak about them)in response to constantly being asked to defend their beliefs . (These are not facts derived from statistics or the opinnions or beliefs of anyone but myself and from my experience)
I do not have time to post any more at the moment but I intend to read all of the comments and discuss further.
-Jordan Heise
Hi David,
I just wanted to take a moment and extend to you a pat on the back for making such a monumental effort to bring reason and freedom to the human mind. Our time is lucky to have you and its rich posts like these that bring me that great feeling of reassurance that humanity might have a chance after all.
You are a patient, virtuous and graceful person for debating in such a level-headed manner. I must admit I find it a bit hilarious that most slanderous and spiteful posts here are anonymous, unsupported and downright hateful.
I personally find it absurd that the majority of the population subscribes to the ludicrous notion of a master creator. I find myself often times embarrassed for them. I can only hope that they encounter opportunities in their life to bring reason and peace to their inherently tumultuous demeanor.
Has any Christian stopped for a moment to dwell on some of the Bible's major (deal-breaking) contradictions? One of my personal favorites is how a God that is good can kill the innocent firstborns of the Egyptians during the time of The Seven Plagues. Only a gruesome, hurtful and truly evil entity would have the capacity to murder innocent children.
The system of religious is a clever one, for it instills guilt of eternal damnation upon "contract cancellation". So its only natural that many intelligent people of faith live in a confused state of limbo where they are forced to repress the indisputable truths we as a species have come to learn about the fabric of our reality.
It is also extremely unfortunate that something that doesn't exist can't be disproven, thus only continuing the disease of blind faith.
Although pride is a huge sin :p, you should feel very proud of yourself for having a fulfilling life, and doing such a great favor for humanity.
I share your vision and I have for long bestowed upon myself to help bring reason and freedom to my fellow man as well.
To the Christians:
I know what its like to believe. It wasn't until I was 14 that I turned to atheism.
I vividly remember the comfort it brought me to think that the Lord always had my back, and all he wanted in return was my unconditional love and devotion. I prayed every night, I went to church and sang songs. It all brought a warm feeling of belonging and peace to my heart.
Upon the cold blooded murder of my grandmother when I was 8, the catalyst was in place, and question after question went unanswered for years.
I was lucky to be in a family with very lax views who never pushed religion on me, they gave me the respect and opportunity to figure it out for myself, and that I did.
I encourage my fellow man to cast the shackles and embrace the world for what it presently is, wonderful and full of love and wonder, without God.
We are all atheists, some of us just go one God farther.
I wholeheartedly challenge you all to open a calm and polite debate with atheists (and more importantly fellow humans) like David with a flexible mindset. If one is not receptive to truth, one will never find it and never have real peace.
@Miguel
Very funny! I've brought up several of those points on my blog, but not quite with such delivery! I love it.
@O.Orbes
Thank you for the kind remarks and thoughtful insight. Your brief note to the Christians on this site was well-written and I sure hope they read it with an opened mind.
On another DogmaDebate blog titled "Why I Am Atheist" I'm currently going back and forth in a debate with a Christian over biblical contradictions, in which he has an explanation for each.
He really has to stretch sometimes. You should check it out.
Thanks for your post!
@Anonymous-agnostic-atheist
I completely disagree with your interpretation of the meaning of agnostic. I don't believe it means to "not claim to know," but rather means "claims that the existence of a god is unknowable." There is a difference there.
There is no such thing as an agnostic-theist. That's an oxymoron. If one does not know if a god exists, that person cannot have a belief in theology. There needs to be a belief in a deity prior to one being a theist. If one has that belief, he or she is not agnostic towards it.
Anyone who is agnostic, is without the belief in a specific god. That's the same thing as atheist, to mean "without gods." You do not have to stand up and shout "I KNOW THERE IS NO GOD" in order to be atheist. Simply lacking the belief in a single deity qualifies you for that title.
@Kaila
Thank for the very nice comments. Sometimes it is difficult not to bring emotion into it, but I know that getting angry or insulting won't progress the discussion, so I try to maintain a civil forum for religious debate. Thanks for noticing. :)
I have one slight correction for your post: I am not "arguing for what I believe." Belief is what one has between what one knows to be true, and what one hopes to be true. If I do not have the evidence, I do not blindly believe with faith.
Atheism is not a belief. It is not a religion. It is simply the realization that all religions are without proof.
you make some very good points, but i must say, you're thinking is narrow, as well as arrogant.
i'm not even a religious person. yet, atheism strikes me as a displaced form of pride. get over it. there's something out there bigger than anything our tiny human minds can grasp whether we can accept it or not. it's all too complex to be an accident.
I have always wondered how women can believe in a religion that treats them like garbage. Do they really believe they should be murdered if they aren't a virgin. Or given away to pay for a father's debt?
I'm not trying to make this into a gender argument, merely trying to make a point. The whole "purity" thing really makes me fly off my horse. :)
Great list, it was a pleasure to read. I really wish young adults were required to take some sociology and psychology courses. Not necessarily to shake a person's religion, but to shake the racism, sexism (this goes both ways - I personally don't prefer a "macho" man), and/or negativity to the LGBT community that many people have. It's really disheartening (at least for me) to see narrow mindedness.
Sorry about the tangent! Once again great article and it was a pleasure to read your patient rebuttals. I will have to check back sometime. :)
Lara - states
David, I was able to read about halfway down the page before I could not take any more ignorance from the very people you are trying to save.
Religion is cancerous, it is one of the many and biggest roots that hinder the human race from reaching our full potential and realizing that this life is all we have!
We must live our lives to the fullest and make as much progress as we can, we don't get another chance! People of religion, please open your eyes and stop being so close minded and ignorant, it's disgusting and sad to see so many sheep blindly following faith off of fabrications.
Man created god to control man, and now our world is brainwashed.
Tell me, religion, have you noticed something lately? Religion has been on the decline, and Atheists are rising. Our world is becoming smarter, technology is evolving, science is exponentially increasing and I believe very soon the rest of the world will finally be able to wake up from this hellish nightmare called Religion and begin thinking for themselves and accomplishing what YOU want to do in your life!
Live for you! Live for your friends! Live for what you can accomplish and do for others! Do not blindly follow faith, knowledge is power.
I do not say these things as an attack on religion, I say these things as another human being that was born into a Christian family and soon realized after reading countless contradictions and fallacies that it just didn't make sense.
If it doesn't make sense, if it isn't logical, if you really want to believe in books that are supposedly thousands of years old and written by God or a prophet of God, then you are wasting your potential. You are wasting your life. You are wasting who you are and who you could be.
God does not save anyone, God does not kill anyone, God does not create miracles nor does he talk to you or anyone else.
When that plane landed and the hundred passengers on board got off safely and went back to your families, do you know who got the credit? Was it the pilot who carefully and skillfully in all his years of training landed that plane and saved those people? No, you insane, blind sheep thanked GOD for saving those people.
Give yourself some credit! God has done nothing for us, look at we have done for ourselves! The current state of the world, all the wonderful things we have, all the wonderful activities; MAN MADE! Just like god.
We are magnificent creatures, it is a pleasure and an amazement just to be alive at all. Don't waste it pursuing something that isn't real!
I say this to every individual, that you are amazing, you are special, and that you don't need to give credit to a fairy for things that you yourself have accomplished!
Live free!
Your writing has inspired me, David. I'm sorry that you've had to deal with such sad, closed minded responses since the release of this.
Calvin - Atheist.
This was pretty much a huge misrepresentation of what Christians actually believe. Don't attack something you don't understand.
^HA!!!!!
"This was pretty much a huge misrepresentation of what Christians actually believe. Don't attack something you don't understand."
This is false. This page may misrepresent YOUR view of Christian beliefs, but it is in no way a misrepresentation of Christianity as a whole, or actual Christianity.
I've heard this argument so many times that it is laughable. How many times do Christians point at other Christians and say "you are not a true Christian if you believe that way!" only to be told by another Christian "NO, YOU are not a true believer because you don't believe this way!" And it goes on and on. Not to mention how many different sects are there in Christianity alone? You do understand that there are different belief structures depending on which sect you adhere to? So please... don't defend something you have no true understanding of to the point that you can only defend your own personal, narrow view of your religion.
I dare say, and I have no evidence of this other than past experience, that you may be one of the very many Christian Cherry Pickers... that is to say, you pick out of your religion what you like for yourself and ignore that which you don't like and label it as unchristian...I'm sorry to break it to you, but a cherry picker is just that.. If you are indeed a cherry picker, then by definition you are also no true Christian, you only adhere to what you like, even though the things you dislike are just as much a part of Christianity as the things you do like.
You know, the good ol' rules of Christianity that all Christians seem to ignore. Killing your child if they are disobedient and disrespectful to you, Selling your daughter into slaver, incest, massacers of innocent children and braty children alike, death if you work on the weekend *since in the bible, the sabbath is sometimes on saturday and sometimes on sunday, just one example of the numerous contradictions...the list goes on and on... and please before you come back and say that they also misrepresent Christianity, PLEASE try to THINK before you type! I DID NOT make these things up! These things ARE in YOUR bible and your God is telling you that these are the things he wants you to do to be Christian, and to do otherwise is against christianity... so I dare say there is no such thing as a "true christian" anymore. They're all cherry pickers.
Religous people believe that if there isn't an answer to something, then 'God' did it! There is no thought process or logial debate. Just the fact that THEIR 'God' did it.
Athiest's try find out.
-Luke
I could not agree with you more on this. I'm only a teenager, and have decided to make the switch to Atheism. I realized it was time to start thinking for myself, and the fairy-tales of the bible just didn't add up. I am so glad not to be a mindless sheep that cannot think for himself. Since my conversion I have noticed an increased appreciation for life. A person only gets one life to live and one chance to live it. Devoting one's life to something that is almost positively not going to happen is seemingly pointless. It is a damn shame that so many people are so hard headed. I could go on for hours about this subject, and I love finding more people that I am in agreement with.
Your Atheist friend,
-Grant
David,
"Atheism is not a belief. It is not a religion. It is simply the realization that all religions are without proof."
Well put; I usually word this concept in a similar fashion. Keep up the good fight!
Max
Number 7 says it all.
http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/331thZ/www.flamewarrior.com/barker_interview.htm
This interview answers a lot of questions that were unanswered on the post..Check it out!! "Science will fly you to the moon, religion will fly you into a building.."
1. thousands different religions are false. If a prophet is wrong one time he is a false prophet. Do your own research and try to find a prophet who was wrong in the old testament.
2. Realizing there is an eternal afterlife and that death is an eternity apart from God creates an urgency to repent from sin and live a moral life according to Gods word.
3. You could ask your daughter if she believes in atoms and she will probably say no because she has never seen one. Which is also an unmistakably familiar concept. Let us not compare children to adults.
4. How many thousands of religions are not around any more? How many religions are backed by archaeological evidence, eye witness accounts, historical writings from Roman and Jewish historians, hundreds of fulfilled prophies?
5. Most religions are false. A person who accepts Jesus as their savior on their death bed will be saved. A person who rejects Jesus no matter how "good" they are will not.
6. God did not create man as sinners. God created man perfect. God also gave us free will. Eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil brought sin into the world. Why did God put the tree there? There is no free will if there is no way to oppose something. The bible was not "written by sinners". God acted through man to bring us his word.
7. "Why does God let bad things happen to good people" There are no good people. We are all sinners and all fall short of the glory of God. If God didn't send Jesus (himself) to die on the cross to pay the price for our sins then we would all go to hell. No one is without sin. But Gods hand is in all things. And all things are working together for the glory of God.
8. Babies are not atheists. Your daughter believes in a creator, the moon. She will not become an atheist untill you teach her to become one.
9. I agree.
10. Your positive actions will not be ignored. But, the price of even one sin is death. If you die in sin and never come to accept Jesus as your savior then you will be apart from God eternally. God is perfect and holy and will not make exceptions. However, God loves you so much that he has provided you a way to be forgiven of your sins so that you can be with him when your body dies.
Old testament law was replaced by Jesus (God). So we don't have to stone our kids and kill homosexuals and have a strict diet. read the new testament to see what Jesus said.
Why are theories reguarded as facts in the science community? isn't the point of science to prove something without a doubt? what was there before the "big bang". Could God have created the universe using a big bang? please help
" Why do bad things happen to good people?" In order for God to stop evil and suffering he would have to destroy everyone! everyone has caused someone to suffer in some way at some point in their life. God actually shows us mercy by not destroying us. (2 peter 3 7:13) says there is coming a day when God will stop evil. So don't worry! awalysbeready.com
Regarding the hundreds of prophecies that came true - the only evidence you have that they came true is a book written 1500-ish years ago by people trying to show that their religion was the 'true' one. Is it possible that they have just referred to the old testament and written their stories accordingly? There is barely no historical evidence for any of the stories in the bible outside of the bible itself.
David,
Great site and keep up the good word my friend.
Josh
paul, there is actually lots of evidence outside of the bible. just take 15 minutes and look at alwaysbeready.com
There's evidence outside the bible that's been retro-fitted to make it seem as though it's fulfilling a prophecy.
In reality, the bible is so anti-scientific and clearly dated, it can't be taken seriously as a fact-based timeless book—but only a historical, religious doctrine tainted with archaic portrayals of male chauvinistic laws and murderous tirades—which clearly indicate no omnipotent inspiration.
I've looked at alwaysbeready.com and there is no evidence there. You seem to be confusing evidence with speculation. A typical piece of 'evidence' from that website is this:
"The history of God’s creation (told in Genesis 1 and 2) tells us that all the land-dwelling creatures were made on Day 6 of Creation Week—the same day God made Adam and Eve. Therefore, it is clear that dinosaurs (being land animals) were made with man."
This is using the bible to prove a story in the bible! This is not evidence. Scientists have a proven method of testing the age of the rocks that dinosaur fossils are found in, this method can be tested and appears to be accurate.
As there is no proper evidence to the contrary, we can assume that Dinosaurs were around many millions of years before humans.
If you could present to me some new way of dating rocks that was better than the current method, and contradicted the current findings, I would gladly look at that evidence and admit that the old way was wrong. Even if proved the earth was created 1000 years ago!
Would you consider evidence that contradicted the bible?
My favorite of the short-sighted, negative responses to this well thought out, multi-faceted article is that they're all written by "Anonymous". That speaks volumes more to David's side than any other.
David, I would like to commend your courage in breaching this topic. From the comments it looks like you have a lot of friends and family that are spiritual if not religious. My least favorite part about being an atheist is having to have this conversation with people closest to me.
I hope someday the world will rid itself of religion and superstition and the planet resembles something that would make Gene Roddenberry proud. Then maybe someone could apologize to all of the great minds like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and all the many other people like you, David, who aren't afraid to voice their objection to the nonsense that has impeded the progress of science and reason. It's people like you who inspire other atheists to come forward and show that there is more of us than people know. So I hope that someday our world is free. But until then I guess the fight continues and I want to say thanks and good luck!
P.S. I'd also like to agree with Noah, "My least favorite part about being an atheist is having to have this conversation with people closest to me." I'm rather embarassed to say I was a Mormon until the age of 16. Brainwashing goes pretty deep as too many people already know but it was my love for science and understanding the universe as it actually is that saved me. Almost my entire family are Mormons so to announce that I was an atheist meant I was immediately an outcast. So Noah I feel your pain, it's not easy.
Thank God I'm an atheist. Is it a sin to find this site so refreshing? ;-)
Seriously, sometimes the US is like a desert with small oases of rationality in it--and many times those oases look woefully small compared to the challenges of confronting fear- and superstition-based belief systems. It is sad that advancing rationality in public discourse is starting to sound like a political position, when in fact it should be a self-evident truth.
Thanks for all you do.
Thank you for this list. I really detest having religion crammed down my throat every day of my life in one form or another. Especially when it's always over-the-top in hypocrisies, as if every one of them is thinking: "I won't judge you as long as you agree with me." I pity so many people who think they have it better when all they really have is an abhorrently shallow interpretation of the world, an interpretation they themselves wrestle with if they have any sense in them at all. Puppets.
If everyone follow just one rule from the Bible, just one, there would be absolutely no need for the rest of the doctrine: Treat others as you wish to be treated.
I'm atheist, i'm 15 years old.
I have no idea how to really put my thoughts into words. It just really boils my blood when Christians force their beliefs down others throats. What baffles me more is how Christians under separate "branches" don't even regard each other as equals. For hundreds of years religion has been the root of many wars.
There are so many contradictions it's almost painful.
If you look through history, the greatest minds we have ever seen have been atheists. Philosophers, Scientists, ect.
Then again, I could be calling myself a hypocrite for stuffing my thoughts down a Christian's throat. At least I can admit that I can be wrong.
Cam
You are wise well beyond your years. It will take you some time to put your thoughts into words well. Atheist concepts take time to brew and really take shape. Continue researching and reading as much as you can. Be sure to always remain level-headed and humble and try to always be an example not only to other atheists, but to christians as well. Its important to not give atheism-haters any reason to hate us anymore.
Keep it up!
David,
With regard to your opinions, I say kudos. I am an athiest (recent illumination) living in a Christian based world. My father is a Baptist minister, my mother being the "good" wife of the pastor. They know my beliefs, or lack thereof in their opinion, and still they feel something is wrong with me. My mother actually blames herself for my "mistake". What is this world coming to?
Anyway, I wrote all that to say this: I applaud this blog, and I applaud those who stand up for their beliefs, no matter what side you are on. Just remember, friends, that this world cannot be seen through the parochial black-and-white tube anymore. Technicolor was created for a reason. Things are not always what they may seem, nor what you want them to be. What makes you an adult, complete with maturity, is the ability to take what life throws at you and turn it into something good for YOU. It is called choice.
I believe that we as humans have evolved to become the master of our own destiny, future, or whatever other term you wish to describe it. I feel that the athiest way of thinking is intrinsically needed to progress forward, rather than beat our heads against walls in attempt to beg forgiveness. I mean, I really don't find it productive to apologize all the time for being human. Jus' sayin'.
And after all my ranting, I say to all those who have not yet opened your mind to reality: Look into yourselves for answers, not look skyward and get a crick in your neck. You won't find anything there. You can find more answers by researching, rather than ask thin air to magically allow it to appear in your lap. Work breeds productivity, asking for miracles breeds a sense of the lackadaisical.
I end my post on this wonderful blog you started, David, with something I wrote a little bit back. I hope you enjoy.
"New Freedom"
Morals and values, suspended belief
Thought and reason, overwhelming relief
Personal opinions, recalled truths
Forced learning, beguiling and uncouth
Deific notations, bound by man
Falsehoods recorded, diabolic plans
Veiled eyes wander, blind to proven fact
Inherent intelligence, no longer intact
Probing questions, burning desires
Unknown fears, trained calm retired
Madness threatening, delusions appear
Childhood stability, falling with new tears
A new savior appears, science as her sword
Awaiting on the riverside, ready to ford
I cry out in desperation, hoping to feel
Her reality's embrace, the strength of her steel
Her voice rang out, piercing all obstruction
Enveloped me tightly, offering real protection
False godhood, Yahweh as the offender
Universal understanding, knowledge as the defender
New freedom abounds, denouncing old fiction
Religious shackles decay, derelict benediction
No more facades, purged masks fall
I'm done with God, I'm no longer his thrall
Cheers all
-James-
"Old testament law was replaced by Jesus (God). So we don't have to stone our kids and kill homosexuals and have a strict diet. read the new testament to see what Jesus said."
Here is what Jesus said:
Mathew 5:14 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
So why don't you have to follow the Old Testament?
Bob
David,
Your my new role model, you are who I am going to stride to be like. I was wondering if you could help me with a problem I am faced with right now. Here is my story: I started not believing in god about 3 years back when I started looking up more and science and how evolution fit into it. The more I found out the more I found it harder to believe in god. It took me about 2 more years after this to really start thinking god was not real, but didn't acknowledge that he wasn't real for fear of "going to hell". Also another reason it was hard for me to decline religion is because my wife was still not ready to give it up. It wasn't until still year that my wife and I fully and totally got rid of religion. What a great day it was when we both became atheist! Not being punish for the things that I did or didn't do right. But this is the problem I have: I am 28 years old (my wife, 25) and we have our own computer repair business.... in the bible belt =/ So I can image you see my problem now. If I was to let people know that I am an atheist it could hurt my already struggling business. Any help would be welcomed, also if you could give us any advice on how we could tell our family member? And this goes out to every atheist: If you could provide me with links and websites to different religions and the like to help me prepare myself to debate with religious people.
Anyway David I found your site through stumble upon (don't know if you've heard of it) and you are the first atheist that I seen that used his/her head instead of mocking, yelling, and cursing at "the other side". I am going to stride to be like this when I "come out".
Thank you for your time advice and this site, when I get a little extra money I plan on buying your book, it really sounds like it would be an interesting read.
And on a final note, in accordance with Luke 12:10, Mark 3:29, and Matthew 12:31-32 I deny the holy spirit and do not believe that it is real. I would weather burn in hell then worship sure a awful god.
Again thank you for everything,
Jason
@Bob
Very true. And in Matthew 10:34, Jesus says: "Do not think that I came to bring peace. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword, to set a man against his father and a daughter against her mother."
What a guy ;)
sorry about all the errors in the writing, running on little sleep right now.
@Jason
Thank you very much for the kind words. I do not take it lightly when someone tells me that I am a person of guidance in their life. I humbly appreciate that.
Through all of this, I consistently encourage fellow atheists to proudly come out. Not just to let others know, but to speak out against the injustices of religion, the ignorance of society, and the mistreatment of non-Christians in America.
With that said, also keep in mind, that you are not compelled to force your atheism in the faces of everyone you meet, and every customer you have. Your views on life, evolution, and atheism do not have to be a centerpiece of your business. You can keep them separate.
I too, am in the Bible Belt. Texas, to be exact. So I know what you mean. I would never tell you to hide your atheism. But realize, that there are many businesses owned and operated by Christians that are also afraid to announce their position for a fear of slimming their market share.
Millions of Muslims in this country also own businesses, but do not hang their logos on the walls or have Qu'rans in plain site. It's not that they are ashamed of their view, they just want to open their businesses to everyone, and not make others feel not-welcome.
So, I think it's perfectly acceptable to run your business separate from your activism and involvement in the atheist movement. And when that long-time customer smiles and says "God Bless You," smile back and say "Thanks, but I don't participate in religion." You don't have to start with the word 'atheist,' but you can ease into things like 'non-Christian' or 'freethinker' or 'nonbeliever.'
Over time, people will grow to know you as that nice couple that doesn't go to church, but always fixes their computer problems!
And THAT is what this movement needs. More people like you and your wife that slowly allow others to realize they are good without gods—but that doesn't force it down their throats in a militant way.
David,
Thank you for your advice. It will surely help us in our business. I was wondering what would be the best way to go about telling the family members in our family. On my side I don't think it will be to difficult to tell my family, who wouldn't mind skipping church 3 or 4 times in a row and used it more as a moral compass then anything. I am more worried about my wifes family. They go to church every Sunday, Sunday night, and Wednesday night. They are always watching religious shows and always talking or doing something god related. Any advice would be helpful.
Jason
Bob, I believe you meant Matthew 5:17 (NIV). Matthew 5:14 "You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden." (NIV) Jesus didn't come to abolish the prophets, but to fulfill them. He fulfilled the prophecy by dying on the cross and rising again three days later thus bearing our sins upon himself AND making mosaic law obsolete. Oh, you should still follow a lot of the old testament since there is good morals but no, you don't have to kill gays and yes you can eat shellfish. In fact Jesus (God) would not hate a gay person. He would hate the sin as he hates all sin. Jesus was persecuted for hanging out with sinners. But that's why he came. He didn't come to hang out with "perfect" people. He came to save sinners. And he loves you even if you hate him. oh, and Jason God will weep when you go to hell. But there is a way out!
hey David Smalley I thought atheists were real smart? If you read a little past Matthew 10:34 you would figure out that turn son against father and bringing a sword means to bring people out of their sin and into righteousness and back into fellowship with the Father even if a kid has to leave his wicked dad. You atheists say you are all logical and smart but I would expect you to at least read the whole bible before you judge. aren't you guys suppose to have critical thinking skills and stuff. I hope you don't just skim over the "evidence" for evolution and big bang and automatically believe it. You guys are pretty intolerant of religious folk. I thought most atheists preached tolerance and stuff. that's pretty hypocritical. I hope nobody assaults me with big words and calls me a troll or something. I would like an adult conversation though. and i'll leave out any sarcasm that might have been perceived.
@Jason,
That's a tough one, and there is no easy answer. I've never experienced a situation that went smoothly. You just have to be honest with yourself and with your family.
I've heard things like "you're better than that," or "you HAVE to believe in SOMETHING!" Then they typically end up saying something really offensive like "you'll bow your head someday, either by choice or by force."
I can only recommend setting a good example, and then slowly but surely let people know that you're 'not a Christian.' That method has seemed to work best. Using words like 'nonbeliever' prior to bringing up the word atheist seems to let them down easy.
I personally didn't care. My family was filled with a bunch of people who claimed to be Christian, but didn't go to church, fornicated, cursed, drank alcohol, and smoked cigarettes, but naturally, as soon as I told them I didn't believer they said "But where do you get your morals from!?" LOL. Really.
Try not to be condescending, and try not to de-convert any of your family. Just let them know where you stand and remain respectful, but expect them to be as offensive as possible. Defend yourself at will.
@Anonymous
First of all, you're coming to this site asking not to be 'assaulted' on this site and requesting a civil argument; but you start your post off saying "I thought atheists were supposed to be smart...aren't you guys supposed to have critical thinking skills?"
So you reap what you sew. Don't be an ass on this site, and people will be respectful to you. But when you show up with garbage like this, insulting atheists, and then putting up your Christian shield, you get laughed at.
You've suggested that I'm not smart because I didn't break down all of Matthew. Seriously? That verse specifically states that Jesus has come to set a man against his father and a daughter against her mother. You can't fun from that text. Spin it any way you must, but don't run from it. It's there.
I've studied religions and psychology for more than 13 years. I am not ignorant of any religious text or practices.
I've had enough of your zealotry and insults. If you want a decent conversation, come to the table with more than just hypocrisy.
While the original post was smart and witty, I find that the comments section is what makes me proud. I feel that to be an Atheist often takes much more consideration and thought than 'going along with' your family's/parent's beliefs. Most people do not take religion lightly, but whatever choice one makes (whether it is to believe in God(s) or not) should not be taken lightly either. To see an educated person like you, David, spreading information about Atheism and giving advice in a diplomatic manner gives me hope.
Arguing with religious people is so frustrating. Having to deal with someone who is so completely close minded is saddening. Until they realize to open their eyes and wake up to the world around them, they'll forever be stuck in a made up fantasy world of false beliefs and lost opportunities.
You are a very smart man, David, and it brings me pleasure to read your responses. I hope one day to be as well versed in speaking my atheist "beliefs" as you! I have such trouble putting into words what I know and it can get frustrating having to explain it to people.
Lets hope that one day we'll be free of this religious nonsense!
I am a son of a priest and an "the the closet" atheist. What is your books name?
-Mike
It's called "Baptized Atheist."
Copy and paste this into your browser:
http://www.amazon.com/Baptized-Atheist-David-Smalley/dp/1578840082/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1287185907&sr=8-1
@Anonymous that brought up Matthew 10:34 - Yes, we Atheists look at evidence and determine what we are going to "accept" (which is completely different than "believe"). As for Matthew, well, you can interpret those passages any way you want, however, it still comes from a flawed, and therefore false, religious teaching. The bible is so riddled with contradictions, inconsistencies, and flat out logical fallacies that it completely invalidates itself.
And before you get on about comparing the bible to sciences, let's clarify something: the bible is a teaching in the whole, not in parts. It is NOT the same as science. With science, either different disciplines support each other, or it is accepted that there is a flaw in one or both sides. With the bible, it MUST support itself completely because the validity of it is based on whether it is "the word of god" or not. If it is the "word" of a "perfect being", it must, by definition be perfect. Since it is not, it must NOT be the "word of god". And since it is the only thing that supports the existence of god, we can deduce that the xian god is not a real being. See how simple it can be? :)
And, now we get to your diatribe. Since we have proven that the bible is NOT the "word of god" and therefore just a bunch of superstitious fantasy that was made up by medieval, desert dwelling goat-herders, translated from a dozen other older religions. We can rightfully assume that, no matter what little bits of common sense you might be able to glean out of it, it is still just a work of fiction and any supernatural expressions must be delusional.
Does that answer all of your questions? If not, I'd be happy to respond to any more that you might have.
Peace be with you.
@David Smalley - About Anonymous that brought up Matthew 10:34
Did you really expect something different? In my experiences, xians that have their faith questioned tend to be very offensive and confrontational. That is until they can't argue anymore because all their BS has been called into the light and they have to make a run for it.
It's so funny that xians tell us we "aren't critical thinkers" because we don't drop all reason and common sense in order to believe something that is so obviously nonsensical. But that just goes to show where their mind set is. They start out with the assumption that their religion is the only "perfect" one and can't believe that other people can't ignore all the absolutely crazy-assed bits to see how "perfect" the rest of it is. You HAVE to expect people who think that way to be irrational and not respect our point of view, but at the same time expect their point of view to be not only respected, but held above reproach.
I've been involved in several posts where someone brings up a specific verse to show how wonderfully perfect the bible is. My approach to that is to simply point out that, as a whole, it is flawed and therefore any little bits they might be able to pull out, especially using interpretation, is, at best, coincidence and most likely is nothing more than a wise word spoken by the equivalent of a 2 year old.
I do not mean to be rude, but your number 6 reason is false. God did not create us to be sinners but to love Him. The ultimate reason things are argued, on both sides, are because verses are taken out of context. If you really want straight answers you should all look up verses people talk about and read them in context with the rest of the chapter.
Also, the bible is not meant to prove Christianity, but rather as a guide to everything Christian.
Hope this helps everyone :)
David,
I'm something of a closet atheist, because my parents force me to attend multiple religious meetings a week, i'm very judicial about telling people. i'm 16 y.o. and i plan on being a future sociologist. ive been a xian my whole life up until 15, until i realized what a fucking sham religion is. (excuse the vulgarity). Some things that really sent me over the edge were the idea that if humans "need religion for morality" as some Christians have put it, then we are in fact not made in the spiritual, psychological, mental, and certainly not physical image of god. I also believe if their god is all good, then he could not commit an act of violence(which he does multiple times throughout the bible). not to mention that, because people do "moral things" because god says so, then they are not moral. therefore god corrupts humanity and is not all good. i was very dissapointed when i figured out there was no god. i studied about 9 religions to no avail. i would very much like a god who punished the immoral, however the lack of evidence is overwhelming. I quite admire you for being a humanist, as i am one too, (both a human and a humanist) and in the future i dearly hope and strive for the idea of elimination of religion to unite mankind. and i also dearly hope to start multiple non profit orgs. and donate 35% of my future salary (if possible) to charity each year.
i would greatly appreciate a reply,
with highest regards,
-Shane
To think that I have to live my life in fear of burning for eternity because of so-called sins that are inherent in us because some dude named Adam ate the wrong apple makes me sick. I know christians often justify this by saying the bible is just a simplified interpretation to make understanding the "mysterious ways of the lord" a little bit easier. But clearly the point the bible is trying to make is that we are sinful as a result of mankind's turn towards evil at some stage in history. So why don't we all get a chance to be born into a perfect world and make our own decision as to whether we will be tempted by some evil snake or follow a "righteous" path? If there really is a god, why would he give us the quality of curiosity while leaving us to the devils disposal to go about tempting us to do things that are only in our curious nature to do....and then burn us forever if we don't ask for forgiveness! Why would he expect us to believe he exists without giving us true, justifiable proof that he exists? Surely if he did so, he'd have everyone bowing at his feet and doing all the silly things he expects of us, ultimately what he wants right?? Or is his apartment up in the clouds a bit too overcrowded for everyone to fit? Why would this all-loving, all-amazing being test us on a daily basis while expecting us to remain vigilantly faithful to something we can not hear, see, taste, smell and most importantly, feel. It sounds to me more like a sick, depraved experiment then unconditional love.
It makes me sad to feel so judged and dismissed by religious people purely because they think I have been taken over by the temptations of the devil. And then proceed to say, "God still loves you no matter what.", in some fruitless attempt to make me feel guilty. I was born as part of a superior species on this planet and for that I am more and more grateful every day. I live to be apart of an immensely intricate ecosystem , my life is fulfilled everyday through being with people I love, doing things I enjoy while striving to improve myself and the world around me. Doing what is right comes naturally purely through this fulfillment not by rules that have been laid out by someone/something else. This comes naturally to everyone but is sadly distorted through society's declining ability to love. If religion is what society needs as a crutch to enforce what is right then we are ultimately doomed to ourselves as we lose sight of true life and love. Love which can be felt from fellow humans is so much more incredibly intricate, overwhelming and fulfilling then this forced, blind love for a god.
I wish religious people would just step back for a day and understand how we have evolved from micro-bacterial life forms, take in how incredibly complex we are as a species of this planet, realise that there is math that HUMANS have so precisely created that interlinks and explains theories about our universe and try comprehend that IT IS POSSIBLE for us to be in the position we are in without an external creator! It is so much more incredible to understand that then to believe that we are some sort of invention by a higher power. But being the lazy people we are, it is so much easier to just listen to what is preached and blindly fight for it without putting your education and intelligence together with your religion to intuitively question its statements (and motives). We are responsible for ourselves, our actions and the consequences they have. As soon as we are able to shift blame onto a 'devil' or have our sins erased by prayer, we have an excuse to be truly evil, which is what our world has become.
Rowan McKenzie, South Africa
PS Sorry for the attack on religion (moreso on christianity) but I have only recently become athiest so now each day I build up anger at the 19 years I spent/wasted devoting myself to something that has always never made complete sense to me.
Hahahahahahahaha wow. I think you need to do a bit of homework before posting your "Top Ten Reason's I'm Athiest." You obviously don't know much about religion if you think that if a believer dies before having time to repent he is going to hell. And just a side note...to be a true atheist is impossible. To fully know that there is no god would mean you would have to be god yourself. You can never prove Gods inexistent and therefore cannot be atheist. You are an agnostic. Come on buddy, lets leave this amateur hour and actually reason like semi-inteligent people.
P.S. Children also believe the moon is made out of cheese so I wouldn't hold to highly to their beliefs
It's really hard not to insult these types of anonymous, childish posts, but I will continue my respectable tone.
First of all, you're replacing 'religion' with Christianity. Don't get the two confused. I know plenty about both.
It's not impossible to be an atheist. Simply having a lack of belief is quite possible. You are atheistic toward Allah and Demeter.
To be a-theistic means without a theism. That is what an atheist is—without that theistic belief. Atheism doesn't require all knowledge of the universe. Get over it. We exist.
I need to do homework? You mean, like study religion and psychology for 13 years, read the entire bible twice, become the Editor of the American Atheist magazine, host a religious debate site that gets more than 20,000 hits per week, and publish a book called "Baptized Atheist" that's selling out on Amazon?
You're right. I probably don't come close to your credentials.
Wow...first off, I think everyone should really give David some super major props - you've managed to continue to respond to people after months, and remain calm and together with each one. More than I could even imagine from myself.
Seeing as brief intros here seem to be acceptable - my name is Quinn, I'm a nineteen year old lad and currently studying to major in psychology. I want to be a gender therapist, seeing as I myself am a transsexual individual. Whoot. XD
All that aside, I am not sure if I would so much be called an atheist, exactly. I suppose I'm somewhat spiritual? Not in the way of thinking there's some Almighty Overseer or anything, just in...well, I believe in the positive and negative energies of the world, their impacts on others, how our thoughts affect the world around us, and that everything in the world deserves a level of respect. Somewhat Wiccan-like in bits, I suppose, but not whole-heartedly anything.
One thing I do tend to notice from people arguing or discussing from the Christian camp is that they themselves make no mention to the hundreds of contradictions within the bible itself. There are so, so many, just in that one religion alone. It's not dependable. It's a book of mixed messages. I've also seen no one able to defend the terrible, terrible things this "loving" and "perfect" God has done. Killing innocents by the thousands, innocent /children/ at that, forcing others to contemplate murder of their own family members just to prove they love God above anyone else...it's just wrong. There's no reason for him to have done those things, none at all. And personally, the idea of someone/thing who would create others just so they could be worshiped? That's not perfect, in my opinion, that's someone who is narcissistic and selfish. I also highly dislike the idea that someone can live a relatively bad, sinful life...but as long as they earnestly repent and accept Christ in the end, they won't go to hell - compared to someone who earnest tries to live for the better of themselves, their fellow humans, etc...but if they don't accept Christ, it doesn't matter, they have to go to hell. God's major concern seems to be that everyone believe in him, no exceptions. Again, to me, that doesn't make me think of someone perfect. Someone who kills and forces people to kill all to prove how much /he/ is loved and worshiped...who creates people just so he /can/ be worshiped...nah. That's not a perfect being.
Either way, I'm sure you've heard every agreement to your words as well as every argument, so I'll end my ramble here. Again, great job continuing to respond to others, and maintain your level of composure too - especially in the face of others who neglected to do the same.
I'm 15, and I have to agree with everything you've said David. It's currently 11:30 at night and I've just been silently cheering whenever I read a comment I agreed with. So basically all of the comments you've posted.
I was always raised being told two different things. My dad always said to "believe in the Almighty King of Kings" etc. and my mom always told me to make my own decisions and beliefs. By the age of twelve, I realized I did not believe in any gods. It's just too inconsistent.
I think that I'm a lot like you. I am very clear on my opinions and will satnd up for them no matter what. I have gained quite a few arguments from reading this. I think my favourite (yes I'm Canadian) is when someone said something along the lines of "I don't get why atheists talk about god so much" to which you replied "If you faound a cure for cancer, wouldn't you want to tell people?" I laughed pretty hard at that.
I'd like to finish saying this. Being intelligent doesn't mean you know the most things. Being intelligent doesn't mean you know how to read or write. Being intelligent is having the ability to reason, and the ability to see someone's opinions and rebut in a calm and orderly fashion. You, David, are incredibly intelligent.
Oh, and I'd also just like to say for everyone else, you don't prove negatives. You prove positives and until you prove positives, you believe in the negatives. Therefore, you don't prove there isn't a god or many gods, you prove there are and until you can, you believe there aren't.
David --
I was reading your article and I just want you to know that Jesus loves you. He really does - he came down from heaven and shed his blood for you! Jesus wants to take you to heaven with all the angels and stuff where you can live for eternity with him in his holy love.
The Bible even says that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son to pay for our sins.
Well, except maybe for the raping and murder of the people at Jabesh-gilead. Maybe God didn't like them. I mean, the Holy Bible speaks about the Israelites being allowed to kill all the males and rape 400 virgins, but I'm sure there was a good reason for it.
But other than that - God loves this world and wants everyone saved - even the backsliders. I mean, now that the Medianites were put to the sword and all the virgins raped for worshipping Balaam...those lil stinkers. You gotta admit, they probably had it coming...
Hmmm... I wonder if he loves the girls that a man can basically rape for 50 silver pieces and then she is forced to marry the criminal that raped her.
And why was Israel allowed to murder so many people for no other reason than he didn't have a covenant with them like he did with the Jewish people.
And then he even screwed them over in WW2 - dude holds a grudge, eh? Even when he's "saying" he loves you.
Or ... why would he imprison Satan just to let him out again to deceive us and all the judgements of the seven vials and the seven seals he's putting people through. Boils!?!? Really? BOILS!?!?!
I mean, now that I come to think of it - God sounds very odd and insecure. I bet you he would drive a big pickup truck with huge tires on it.
Anyway, I was gonna say that Jesus loves you and wants to be your friend. But, with friends like that, who needs enemies?
-clay
My name is Drew I am 29 years old and I've been an atheist for over 15 years having been raised Catholic. For me religion is a sham, all of the people I have spoken to who have become atheist will freely admit that they were just going with the flow, that they were frightened of the 'Devil' tricking them away from God.
They saw and realised the traps how there was always an answer for everything, I learned years ago how to spot a liar, it's the one person who will answer a question with an 'I don't know?' and religion has an answer to everything. I do not have an answer to everything, no one does and anyone preaching that they know everything is a fraud, an atheist brain is a sceptical, scientific and humanist brain and as such we are open to doubt, we do not fear it!
The vast majority of atheists make better Christians than Christians do. We can turn the other cheek and we are secure in our own convictions without having to prove it to you. Circular logic does as it sounds, the bible says it, you believe it because the bible says it. Think about that for a second, just think; if someone came up to you now and said with absolutely no proof or evidence whatsoever to back up his claims of a giant metal man stood right before you, but that he was invisible would you believe him or have him sectioned? Would it make a difference if he had a book with him??
We have the convictions we do because of evidence all pointing to the same thing that the universe is about 13.75 billion years old, that the earth is around 4.5 billion years old. Religion is not all wrong. The preaching of love and peace is excellent advice although as for the rest of it, sorry it makes no sense. Years ago the Christian churches believed the earth was flat and that we were at the centre of the universe, religion eventually (well most) adopted that even after torturing Galileo, science prevailed and always will do. Today's religion is tomorrow's ancient studies laughing at how we could believe such nonsense as children today laugh about Zeus.
Sorry if I rambled and seemed a bit rushed, I need to be somewhere. Peace out!
what was there before the big bang? How did nothing create something? What is an example of something ever being created out of nothing? Why can't scientists reproduce the spark of life and create life in a test tube? in order for the universe to be created there would have to be something there before it to create it. Before I stop beliving in God someone has to answer these questions.
Jesus taught in parables which is basicly metaphore and simile that we use today. "Bringing a sword" doesn't mean pull out a sword and kill everyone. Jesus obviously didn't do that. Reading Matthew 13:10-17 Jesus explains why he uses parables. A lot of people talk about contridictions in the bible. write them out and i will explain. there is a good book titled "When Critics Ask: A Popular Handbook On Bible Difficulties" by Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe that explains all these "contridictions". I encourage you to check it out. To Quinn, you have good points about why we shouldn't worship dictators but your understanding of the scriptures are off. First i'll say that religion is bogus. All of these thousands of religions are leading people away from God. Even all of these different types of Christians are leading people astray. Mormons and J.W. are not Christians. Any church that strays away from the Bible and starts teaching their own things should be challanged. I'm sorry for the born and raised Catholics turned atheists because the Roman Catholic church has lots of problems. One being the worship of saints and mother mary. God wants you to worship him, not saints. That's just one thing. I think that the Calvary Chapels in Southern California do the best job of sticking to the word and nothing else. Before atheists judge Christians they should be careful not to group us all together. If you want to attack Catholics say "Catholics". We are not the same. It is not hypocritical for me to say don't judge me when "Christians judge everyone" and "Judge lest ye be Judge" because a better translation of the Hebrew is "condemn". Christians are not to condem people. we certainly can evaluate and criticize people but we are not to condemn. That's why a true Christian would not try to kill you for being transsexual like a muslim might. A true Christian would not shun a homosexual. He would try to bring you that person to Christ and help them stop living in that sin. We are all sinners, i am, i'll admit that. i struggle with sin everyday. Sin in a nutshell being anything a Christian would be ashamed of doing in front of Jesus. We have a sinnful nature because man brought sin into the world. God did not create sinners. Coming to Christ is the only way to be forgiven. You ask Jesus to come into your life and guide you. But you must mean it. You can't just say it. I pray that atheists stop putting Christians into the "religion" catagory. To be a Christian is to be a follower of Christ and his teachings. it is not one of these thousands of false religions. It is the truth.
Something you might enjoy. I did. As I've enjoyed reading this whole page. I consider myself pagan, as I embrace many of their practices, but do not partake in the warship of any...divine being. My number one question to christians is "where did God come from?" No one seems to be able to answer it....
http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/1v9DcN/www.philosoraptor.com/sickntired.html
-Sydney
@Drew
My name is Emilio. I was raised a catholic, then turned agnostic/atheist. I did not turn to the bible with blind faith. Some books I read were Hyperspace, String Theory, and numerous science articles, I also ended up reading Discovery. Anything that could put doubt in religion I would read. So just know for however many people "grow up" with a religious background and then see the "light" hows its all a sham. Theres an equal amount of people, including atheists that turn to God.
I hope you take the time to review this site on what you stated. God and science exist together. Just because you can explain it does not mean God did not have his hand in it.
www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v6/n1/radioisotopes-and-age-earth
Also keep in mind there are numerous of scientific theories that refute mainstream science. I ask you this. How much effort have you put into the science YOU love so much that talks against what YOU beleive in? Darwinism is another. Many intresting science articles out there that talked against this theory. Yet we still teach it to our children as if it was truth. When there are numerous theories that can be backed by raw data that refute the notion of one genome turning into another genome. I would love to hear your opinion on the link after you read it though.
Please show me in the bible where it says the earth is flat. If I recall the bible says in Isaiah 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in." This was before the time of Galileo. Way before.
Also consider this one "He stretches out the north over empty space;He hangs the earth on nothing." Job 26:7
Sounds like outer space to me.
I do enjoys these debates it makes me stronger in my faith. I hope more can comment on this.
Damn, there are so many comments. I’ve read a handful of them but I don’t think I’ll get around to reading all the debates.
I've never really liked debating the possibility of a god. It usually doesn't turn out well for me.
During most of my life people have judged me on my beliefs, which have changed over the years. Children used to tell me I was going to burn in Hell for what I was doing, but I haven’t been able to understand /what/ I was doing that was so horrible.
I live an average life, I work to keep gas in my car and food on the table, I’m going to school for Fine Arts, I have friends and family that I love, and I feel like I’m a good person. I don’t want to hurt anyone or change anyone.
This doesn’t seem to impress some people, though. People still tell me, to this day, that I will burn in Hell. A lot of older, more conservative Christians and surprisingly younger, more liberal people of the faith tell me daily that if I don't change, I will burn in the pits of Hell.
These constant reminders that being /myself/ was only going to end in disaster made me hate religions for the longest time. I didn't care who or what people were worshiping, I hated them. I would go along my daily life being miserable because I didn’t understand why they would say these things. I didn’t want to be a bad person, so I went to a few churches to try to fix myself.
I felt alone in these churches. I was surrounded by people who believed and understood everything that the speaker was saying, but I sat there, in my own little self pity, wishing I could just believe. This went on for years as I searched for a church that fit. I went to an Irish Catholic church because my grandparents went there. That was a disaster. I went to a Mormon church because of my boyfriend at the time, and almost started laughing during one of the Sunday school lessons. I went to a Protestant church because of my mother, and that was probably were I felt the most miserable.
I just don't fit in any of the churches I've tried, I have lingering thoughts and questions that can't be answered in a way that makes sense in my mind... I can’t be satisfied by the promises that I’m told God will keep, and I’m not moved by the songs that are sung. I honestly thought there was something wrong with me, so I labeled myself a floater, someone who didn’t belong to any religion or set of beliefs.
I feel like I'd be more comfortable here if people of the faith were a little more open minded. Not about their religions, honestly I stopped caring about what other people believed after I had reached high school, but I just wished they were open minded about the feelings of others.
Is it really godly to torture your peers? Make them feel completely miserable for not being able to comprehend what you believe. Is it godly to hate, hurt, and kill others because of their beliefs?
I don't think so, which is probably why, for the longest time, I stayed away from churches and those who worked inside their walls. I've always had a fear of being left alone with a priest or pastor or what have you. I’ve always worried that they would be mean to me, hateful because I was a confused little girl in a big, religious world. I can’t hide from religion, but at the same time I can’t embrace it. This is why, as of late, I have labeled myself more of an Atheist than a floater. I still want to study the religions of the world and keep as open a mind as I can, and maybe one day find one that makes more sense to me, but for now, I am without a religion.
Sorry for the long ramble. I don’t’ really know what point I was trying to make, I just wanted to tell a story. I loved the points you made, David. They were entertaining and I share some of the same feelings as you. I also loved some of the responses you made to comments. Especially the one where you talked about what you live for, it was very beautiful. Keep up the lovely writing and the life you live. You sound like a great person.
-Shannon
To answer sydney "where did God come from" God is eternal. He always was and always will be. He exists outside of our reality where there is a begining and an end. We know that something cannot be created out of nothing. if it could i would have no debt! therefore in order for the universe to be created there had to be something already. God is eternal. He has no begining or end he is the begining and the end. He was not created because he has always been. It can be hard to fathom but that is the answer. This is not an attack but it seems that the answer to secular scientists and people is to just use a huge unthinkable amount of time to explain everything. But even at billions of years old the problem is still how did it all begin? the older something is the harder it is to prove and explain. We know that things can flash fossilize. This proves that we don't millions of years for fossils to occur. Mt. Saint Helens erupting in 1980 showed how thousands of layers of sediment can settle in a matter of hours proving that we don't need billions of years for rock layers to form.
...also there are pictures of trees that go vertically through many many layers of rock suggesting that you don't need billions of years to lay that many layers of rock. fossils of sea creatures have been found on tops of some of the highest mountains. There is so much evidence for a global flood like the Bible says. Why do secular scientists suggest Mars was once completely covered in water even though there is no apparant surface water now, but deny the possibility of a global flood on Earth even though 70% of our surface is water? Mount Saint Helens also carved out a mini grand canyon in hours. trees became petrified. it is amazing what happened there check it out. - Matt
Man…
… one thing that is really piercing for me is the number of times I hear Atheists talk about their «christian » horror stories. The Bible does say that we, christians, can be the cause of people blaspheming God. I have probably done it myself, but reading a lot of the comments on here has really made an impact. By God’s grace I am going to try not to be one of those…
The real sad thing is that the way christianity is seen ( which is food for thought because no one here has spoken to all the christians, of all the churches of all ages) makes it look so unapealing. I think christian’s should be called on their God-Dishonnoring behavior yes, but this behavior does not negate the possibility of the God we are supposed to represent. How many historical Atheists would YOU like to bar from your next cocktail party?
I don't think it is unreasonable to stand in awe of Being; the fact that there is a something rather than nothing. I don't think it would be wrong to name the essence of existence itself "God". But the story must end here.
It is quite unreasonable to assign whole sets of attributes and qualities to a god based on human writings, historical or otherwise. Further, it is spectacular folly to try to use these writings to deny proven science. These "holy" books were written by men not a god. They are not science; they are not history; they are nothing but mythology. Treat them as such and come out of their darkness.
"What evidence do you have that there is a God?”
The very existence of the universe itself is evidence that there is a God. Let’s think about this for a moment. There are only three options for the existence of the universe. One, that it has always been. Two, that it came into being by itself. Three, that it was created. The first option, that the universe is eternal, has been utterly rejected by the scientific community. The motion of the galaxies, the background radiation echo, and other evidences all overwhelmingly point to the fact that the universe sprang into existence at a particular point in time, something scientists call the Big Bang. Option two, that the universe created itself, is philosophically impossible. Of course, before the universe existed it would not have been around to do the creating. Obviously, a non-existent universe could not have done anything! It did not exist. We all know that nothing can not do anything. Nothing is nothing. It (if we could even call nothing an it!) cannot see, smell, act, think, or create. So option one and two can be thrown out on scientific and philosophical grounds. Option three, that something or someone outside of the universe created the universe, is the only reasonable option. Let’s imagine I am holding up a painting. When you see a painting, what proof do you need to establish the fact that a painter exists? Nothing else besides the painting itself. The painting is absolute proof that there was a painter. You do not need to see the painter to believe that he or she exists. The painting is all the evidence you need. It would not be there if the painter did not exist, and so it is with the universe. The existence of the universe itself proves absolutely that there is a creator.
“If God is so loving, why does He allow evil and suffering?”
This is the most common question people have regarding God. Here is an interesting question for you to consider. What do you propose God should do about it? To stop evil and suffering, God would have to stop every act that causes any suffering. To do that, He would have to stop those who cause the suffering (adulterers, liars, murderers, criminals, fornicators, etc.). Wouldn’t that mean He would have to put a stop to you too? Haven’t you, by your own actions, caused some of the suffering that exists in the world? Haven’t you hurt somebody’s feelings? My friend, God has not destroyed evil because He would have to destroy us. By permitting evil and suffering to continue, God is actually showing the world mercy. The Bible says that there is coming a day when God will stop evil (2 Peter 3:7-13). He will judge sinners, put them away forever, and create a new heaven and a new earth where there will no longer be any death, mourning, crying, or pain (Revelation 21:4). In the meantime, God is using the suffering that exists for good (Romans 8:28, Philippians 1:12). Often, when a person is suffering, they turn to God and receive the kind of help they truly need.
Okay if there are gods, why would they let so many wars go on in their names(s)? You'd think that an almighty being would not only want all his "children" to get along, but also has the power to have them get along. And, if he wants to be worshipped, why wouldn't he give some sort of concrete evidence of his existence. If you look at it from a scientific point of view, there is no way. Occam's Razor tells us to believe in the non-existence of any higher beings. And if you decide to look at it from a "faithful" point of view, if you're just believing that there is an almighty being that created everything and is watching everyone and everything at all times, you're just clouding your mind (A.K.A. being ignorant). There is proof that we weren't created. There isn't any proof that there is a god.
Hello to the anonymous talking about suffering and evidence...
As far as evidence that "the only way the universe could have been created is by an outside being." Then where did the creator come from. and if he can eternally exist why couldnt we have been created on our own.
the most common misconception about the big bang theory is that there was nothing before it. Most quantum physicists have come to the hypothesis that the big bang was a quantum fluctuation.
basically thats a big word for a random event struck and caused physical space(or non-space) to be warped into something completely different. another type of space with different physics and atomic structure. it has been calculated that every piece of matter in the universe(estimated of course) could have been clustered into a point smaller than a single atom. the big bang was simply all that matter being jetted out. (most of it was lost within minutes of creation because of clashing matter and anti matter.)
and as far as your argument that god does not intervene because he is "showing mercy" well, that may explain the human-caused suffering to your point of view. but what about non-human caused suffering? then youll probably say he uses suffering for good or something along those lines. So he uses the suffering of 80,000 people dying in japan from a tsunami to make other people believe in him? Wow, what a great guy. so i came to my conclusion that even ASSUMING that your god is real, why would i follow him? i would gladly go to hell instead of his "paradise". no offense but your god comes off as a dick.
-Shane Bonanno
I think what separates Christianity from other religions is grace, and where the source of that grace comes from, Jesus and his life and his work, which allows one to extend grace to others and be completely transformed, every other religion requires an earning of their Creator's love and affection. He was unlike any other man in the history of the world because he was more than a man he was and is the very essence of God in the form of a man, and he has stood the test of time historically if one is really willing to delve into it. Yes, there are a lot of prophets and religions out there, and I have looked at a lot of them and I have not looked at a lot of them, but I keep coming back to Jesus and grace and how profoundly radical his life was and how radical grace is especially within the context of all the other religions. Every other religion is about people trying to reach God, Christianity is about a God who cared so much about humanoids that he became like them in an effort to reach them.
-Grant
Yeah, but you gotta wonder how he did the impossible by having sex and not having sex with a virgin who gave birth to the person she both had sex with and didn't have sex with without losing her virginity. Hard to follow, right? Yeah, there's a reason for that.
Well yeah, that's why it's referred to as the immaculate conception, and certain things do require faith right? I believe in miracles. You can and try to explain everything through reason, but eventually certain presuppositions require faith. If you look at your own life, certain arenas require faith, even atheism requires faith when you break it down.
-Grant
*You can try and try
David,
First off let me congratulate you on all of your accomplishments-the book (which I enjoyed thoroughly), the magazine, your schooling, family, etc. As a staunchly atheistic humanist free-thinker, it always pleases me to see proponents of logic such as yourself, Richard Dawkins, etc bring this debate into peoples' minds and lives. I cannot emphasize enough how much the sense of freedom and reverence for the universe has improved my outlook on life. To understand the truly REMARKABLE odds we as human beings have overcome just to be here is astounding and beautiful (a point Dawkins often makes).
My name is Keith, I am the vice president of Boston's Atheist Meetup Group, a graduate student at Northeastern University, and more applicably, an enormously active member of our cause There is one topic that has been briefly touched on in these comments, but not thoroughly discussed. During last week's Meetup a conversation came up that I believe is truly central to our cause (however you may define it-turning people on to the sense or awe and freedom that comes from understanding the wonders of scientific discovery, wanting to end the senseless hatred that erupts from futile disagreements over the various religious dogma, etc.) One member of our group brought up the fact that the WORD "atheist" carries with it such a negative connotation it almost seems to have lost it's meaning. In the eyes of most Christians (I use their religion because it's with this "language" we have the most interaction), the word atheistic does not mean "without theistic belief" nearly as much as it has become synonymous with "evil" or "blasphemer" or "devil worshiper" even (yes I've actually been called that-which is ironically asinine since being an atheistic free-thinker by definition excludes the belief in any type of "devil" figure)!
Sad as their ignorance and lack of comprehension may be, the fact still remains that it's the truth. Therefore, my group member went on to say, we as the atheist community should try to distance ourselves from that word. Yes it accurately describes our school of thought (not belief, judgmental Christians, school of thought), but so do the terms "free-thinker" or "secular humanist" or "proponent of logic and science" or any other descriptive term for someone who follows logically the advancements of science while recognizing the seemingly endless contradictions of religion.
One must admit, the term "secular humanist" just doesn't carry that same connotation in the eyes of a Christian.
Another interesting point I brought up at the meeting in response to my friend's idea was that even if we were somehow able to completely eradicate the term "atheist" from all logical free-thinkers' vocabularies, the word would undoubtedly live on in the minds and mouths of any "anti-atheist" (for lack of a better all-encompassing term).
Why? (I think this is SUPREMELY IMPORTANT to understand - please read on - I had to split up the post due to length limitations)
Because it is those who abhor atheistic tendencies that give the word or term life/meaning. Think if it in this sense: why do we not have a word for people who don't believe in Santa Claus? Or the tooth fairy? Surely there are more people (albeit children) who believe in those two characters than there are members of certain, specific Christian denominations. And yet the word for "one who lacks a belief in old children's tales" does not exist because the vast majority of adults know the stories to be untrue. And yet I can't help but feel that if by some miracle (I choose that word advisedly) religion became the minority and atheism the overwhelming majority, those of faith would still call this majority of people "atheists" with some kind of derogatory tone.
I find it quite interesting that while there probably exists a comparable amount of literature on the subject of Santa Claus (or St. Nicholas or any other variation thereof) as there does OFFICIAL religious text (for the sake of the example let's ignore the thousands of books written about various religions each year), one is clearly rejected by any sane adult while the other is believed with the same childish naiveté that we laugh and smile at when it's a child's innocent acceptance of the existence of Santa. So while the word atheist shouldn't even exist in the same way unicorn non-believers aren't given a label, it does.
I know this will not change, at least not in our lifetime (I still, perhaps foolishly, hold on to the notion that one day scientific advancements will eradicate religion), but I certainly believe this question of semantics should be addressed, or at the very least considered, by free-thinking humanists such as you and I.
Thanks for your time and David I adore your website. Keep up the good work!
- Keith
I typed that entire post on my iPhone - please forgive the typos.
One quick clarification - when I wrote:
"In the eyes of most Christians...the word atheistic does not mean 'without theistic belief' nearly as much as...'devil worshiper'...
Sad as their ignorance and lack of comprehension may be, the fact still remains that it's the truth."
I meant that "it's the truth" in the sense that they, in truth, consider and refer to atheists in these terms. Needless to say, I did not intend to convey that we ARE evil devil worshipers (lol!).
When I go on to say in the following few lines that "it accurately describes our school of thought," again, I do not mean "evil devil worshipers," I meant that the term "ATHEIST" does indeed accurately describe our school of thought (clearly, since we, as you so eloquently explained, David, ARE in fact a-theistic, or without theistic belief).
Ha as I re-read my post, I realized how UNBELIEVABLY misconstrued those few lines could be interpreted (especially by those who already consider free-thinkers evil, blasphemers, or devil-worshipers).
Otherwise, I know there are several small typos (darn iPhone auto-correct). Again, my apologies - hope it isn't too difficult to read. Typing on a computer (such as I am now) sure makes things easier!
Cheers everyone,
Keith
The restraint on the author's part as an athiest to not rudely and blatantly but directly and honestly point out some of the flaws in religion is impressive. It's funny to me to see very religious people that read articles like this in an attempt to solidify their faith in their faith by childishly insulting others thoughts. I'm not an aggressive athiest, but as far as I see or hear or believe or feel, there is no god, nor are there gods. Many of the people I know will angrily defend their religion with weak points about 'feeling his presence' or 'just knowing he's there.' I find this argument to be inadequate in proving the existence of an omnipresent, omnipotent being. These are the same people that are currently failing or have previously failed high school level science. Not due to stupidity but rather a lack of understanding the physical world rather than the one we cannot see. When I attempted to have a respectful conversation with them about their faiths, they grew angry with me and turned to insulting me and my beliefs, or lack thereof. It seems to me to be very hypocritical of these like-minded people to expect me to be so open to their faiths, but will reject any other thought that contradicts theirs. It's all too difficult to have a reasonable discussion with people of religion on this topic to really understand where they got these ideas from. I recognize that religion can assist people in transformations and coping with losses, but I object to it being accepted as the only right answer among a group with the same worldview. The refusal to even listen to any other opinion, with the argument that 'god is fact' is a closed-minded and harsh punishment for inquiring about a faith. The religious people I know have often told me that I'm wrong to be an athiest, and that I'm closed-minded,lost,and stupid. but I know this to be untrue. I have as much meaning to my life as any other, with or without faith. These people were not just from one religion, but from separate and very different faiths. No one likes to be told they're wrong, but to have your opinion quelled by someone who will not listen to you,nor answer your questions is incredibly frustrating. Many a time I've been forced to walk away from a discussion to refrain from engaging in regretful discussion. You have to wonder if the unwillingness to answer any question or hear any other ideas from other faiths stems from being sure or being insecure about their beliefs. How could a religion teach you to be so defensive, rude, and unwilling to even engage in a debate for fear that you be wrong? It sounds like the preachings of a schoolyard bully to his accomplices.
Each child is born with a sense of discovery,adventure,and curiosity which quickly recoils when they are taught religion. If every child is born without beliefs, but these values, then every child is born without a faith. And are children not the most fulfilled and happy beings on our planet? If they may reap the rewards of being faithless, then why shouldn't we, too, take part in this happiness? A Christian once told me 'God is like Santa Claus. When you're little you believe everything your parents tell you about him. Then, when you grow up, you realize it's all bullshit.' Some people never grow up. The most open and accepting people I know are athiests. There is nothing in a doctrine passed on to us by our fathers that tells us to refrain from sinning, we just do. There is nothing that tells us to accept everyone as equals, we just do. If god isn't telling us what is right and wrong, then why are we doing so well on our own? Because we've not been told what is right and wrong, we've known for ourselves and built our own individual codes of ethics based on respect and morality. Perhaps if more religious people spent less time analyzing and tearing apart the beliefs of others, and more time taking a critical look at their own system of beliefs, the world wouldn't have such a divide in it's populous, and there would be no right or wrong answer regarding faiths. Children believe in invisible monsters and boogeymen and unicorns. Adults should know better than to believe in something that isn't real.
Okay, sorry but I've been away from my computer for the past few days. I'd just like to write this to "grantkinman". I do not at all see how you could ever think that atheism requires faith. Atheism means you don't need faith to be a good person. You know that we're on our own in the solar system and we don't want to waste parts of our lives worrying about what the "holiest of holies" thinks about us. We don't need the constant reassurance that we'll end up in a good place. We don't do it because of faith. We do it because we know that it's the right thing to do. Atheism also means that we don't discriminate people based on their religion. Sure, we think they're all pointless, but if someone needs help, we don't convert them to our (lack of) beliefs before we help them. Faith is the only thing that has stopped us from being much more technologically advanced. It's the biggest reason for wars. It is one of the biggest things that takes away individuality. I am 15, my name is Alex, I'm in high school, and I am proud to say that I have no faith that you speak of.
David,
Here's an intriguing thought:
"People, we believe ought not to suffer, be excluded, die of hunger or oppression. But the evolutionary mechanism of natural selection depends on death, destruction, and violence of the strong against the weak-these things are all perfectly natural. On what basis, then, does the atheist judge the natural world to be horribly wrong, unfair and unjust?... If you are sure that this natural world is unjust and filled with evil, you are assuming the reality of some extra-natural (or supernatural) standard by which to make your judgement" - Timothy Keller "The Reason for God."
I was reading this today and I thought it note-worthy and hope it sparks conversation. I also would like to read the other side, this being one of the best books I have ever read in proving the existence of God, I was hoping someone could suggest literature for me they have read to the contrary, the disproving of God. Thanks.
-Grant
Grant
I'm sure by now you don't like me, but I'd just like to give my two cents worth.
I think that there's a difference between us and the animal kingdom. We have the ability to reason. We have the ability to determine for ourselves what is right and wrong. The fact that people don't is why most atheists believe that there is evil in the world. I don't believe that in any way proves the existence of any gods.
As a side note, you may enjoy this:
Atheist) David Smalley vs. (Pastor) Dr. Barry Creamer, EVERY DAY THIS WEEK at 6:30PM CST and 10:30PM CST(repeat)on 90.9 KCBI FM, Dallas, TX
LISTEN LIVE ONLINE: http://www.kcbi.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=listenonline
**on grounds of faith or not on grounds of faith - sorry didn't mean for that to seem vindictive
I can never tell if your angry or if I'm just making you out to be mad at me. As usual I'm replying the day that you posted, not because I'm a teenager with no life, but because I'm a teenager with insomnia.
Now what I'm about to say will seem like I'm saying it harshly, but I'm really not angry or rude. The only problem I see with what you just said is that you used the phrase "in the natural world". The only faith in the natural world is faith for humanity. I do have faith for humanity, but not a lot because we are a destructive race. I have a lot of hope for humanity though. But I think the faith you meant was faith in a higher power. That's not faith for the natural world but faith for the supernatural world. I'm not trying to be pedantic, but if you look at that contradiction you might see that you're asking why we have no faith in the supernatural world and trying to use that to prove the existence of god. That doesn't make sense.
Looking forward to your response as always, but I won't be able to reply until friday night because I'll be on a school trip.
Alex
why are people who believe in a God and creation considered uneducated or illogical? Are these people?
Some modern scientists who have accepted the biblical account of creation. Dr. William Arion, Biochemistry, Chemistry
Dr. Paul Ackerman, Psychologist
Dr. E. Theo Agard, Medical Physics
Dr. Steve Austin, Geologist
Dr. S.E. Aw, Biochemist
Dr. Thomas Barnes, Physicist
Dr. Geoff Barnard, Immunologist
Dr. Don Batten, Plant Physiologist
Dr. John Baumgardner, Electrical Engineering, Space Physicist, Geophysicist, expert in supercomputer modeling of plate tectonics
Dr. Jerry Bergman, Psychologist
Dr. Kimberly Berrine, Microbiology & Immunology
Prof. Vladimir Betina, Microbiology, Biochemistry & Biology
Dr. Andrew Bosanquet, Biology, Microbiology
Edward A. Boudreaux, Theoretical Chemistry
Dr. David R. Boylan, Chemical Engineer
Prof. Linn E. Carothers, Associate Professor of Statistics
Dr. Rob Carter, Marine Biology
Dr. David Catchpoole, Plant Physiology
Prof. Sung-Do Cha, Physics
Dr. Eugene F. Chaffin, Professor of Physics
Dr. Choong-Kuk Chang, Genetic Engineering
Prof. Jeun-Sik Chang, Aeronautical Engineering
Dr. Donald Chittick, Physical Chemist
Prof. Chung-Il Cho, Biology Education
Dr. John M. Cimbala, Mechanical Engineering
Dr. Harold Coffin, Palaeontologist
Timothy C. Coppess, M.S., Environmental Scientist
Dr. Bob Compton, DVM
Dr. Ken Cumming, Biologist
Dr. Jack W. Cuozzo, Dentist
Dr. William M. Curtis III, Th.D., Th.M., M.S., Aeronautics & Nuclear Physics
Dr. Malcolm Cutchins, Aerospace Engineering
Dr. Lionel Dahmer, Analytical Chemist
Dr. Raymond V. Damadian, M.D., Pioneer of magnetic resonance imaging
Dr. Chris Darnbrough, Biochemist
Dr. Nancy M. Darrall, Botany
Dr. Bryan Dawson, Mathematics
Dr. Douglas Dean, Biological Chemistry
Prof. Stephen W. Deckard, Assistant Professor of Education
Dr. David A. DeWitt, Biology, Biochemistry, Neuroscience
Dr. Don DeYoung, Astronomy, atmospheric physics, M.Div
Dr. Geoff Downes, Creationist Plant Physiologist
Dr. Ted Driggers, Operations research
Robert H. Eckel, Medical Research
Dr. André Eggen, Geneticist
Dr. Dudley Eirich, Molecular Biologist
Prof. Dennis L. Englin, Professor of Geophysics
Dr. Andrew J. Fabich, Microbiology
Prof. Danny Faulkner, Astronomy
Prof. Carl B. Fliermans, Professor of Biology
Prof. Dwain L. Ford, Organic Chemistry
Prof. Robert H. Franks, Associate Professor of Biology
Dr. Alan Galbraith, Watershed Science
Dr. Paul Giem, Medical Research
Dr. Maciej Giertych, Geneticist
Dr. Duane Gish, Biochemist
Dr. Werner Gitt, Information Scientist
Dr. Warwick Glover, General Surgeon
Dr. D.B. Gower, Biochemistry
Dr. Robin Greer, Chemist, History
Dr. Stephen Grocott, Chemist
Dr. Vicki Hagerman, DMV
Dr. Donald Hamann, Food Scientist
Dr. Barry Harker, Philosopher
Dr. Charles W. Harrison, Applied Physicist, Electromagnetics
Dr. John Hartnett, Physics
Dr. Mark Harwood, Engineering (satellite specialist)
Dr. George Hawke, Environmental Scientist
Dr. Margaret Helder, Science Editor, Botanist
Dr. Harold R. Henry, Engineer
Dr. Jonathan Henry, Astronomy
Dr. Joseph Henson, Entomologist
Dr. Robert A. Herrmann, Professor of Mathematics, US Naval Academy
Dr. Andrew Hodge, Head of the Cardiothoracic Surgical Service
Dr. Kelly Hollowell, Molecular and Cellular Pharmacologist
Dr. Ed Holroyd, III, Atmospheric Science
Dr. Bob Hosken, Biochemistry
Dr. George F. Howe, Botany
Dr. Neil Huber, Physical Anthropologist
Dr. James A. Huggins, Professor and Chair, Department of Biology
Dr. Russ Humphreys, Physics
Evan Jamieson, Hydrometallurgy
George T. Javor, Biochemistry
Dr. Pierre Jerlström, Molecular Biology
Dr. Arthur Jones, Biology
Dr. Jonathan W. Jones, Plastic Surgeon
Dr. Raymond Jones, Agricultural Scientist
Prof. Leonid Korochkin, Molecular Biology
Dr. William F. Kane, (Civil) Geotechnical Engineering
Dr. Valery Karpounin, Mathematical Sciences, Logics, Formal Logics
Dr. Dean Kenyon, Biologist
...Prof. Gi-Tai Kim, Biology
Prof. Harriet Kim, Biochemistry
Prof. Jong-Bai Kim, Biochemistry
Prof. Jung-Han Kim, Biochemistry
Prof. Jung-Wook Kim, Environmental Science
Prof. Kyoung-Rai Kim, Analytical Chemistry
Prof. Kyoung-Tai Kim, Genetic Engineering
Prof. Young-Gil Kim, Materials Science
Prof. Young In Kim, Engineering
Dr. John W. Klotz, Biologist
Dr. Vladimir F. Kondalenko, Cytology/Cell Pathology
Dr. Leonid Korochkin, M.D., Genetics, Molecular Biology, Neurobiology
Dr. John K.G. Kramer, Biochemistry
Dr. Johan Kruger, Zoology
Prof. Jin-Hyouk Kwon, Physics
Prof. Myung-Sang Kwon, Immunology
Dr. John Leslie, Biochemist
Dr. Jason Lisle, Astrophysicist
Dr. Alan Love, Chemist
Dr. Ian Macreadie, molecular biologist and microbiologist:
Dr. John Marcus, Molecular Biologist
Dr. Ronald C. Marks, Associate Professor of Chemistry
Dr. George Marshall, Eye Disease Researcher
Dr. Ralph Matthews, Radiation Chemist
Dr. John McEwan, Chemist
Prof. Andy McIntosh, Combustion theory, aerodynamics
Dr. David Menton, Anatomist
Dr. Angela Meyer, Creationist Plant Physiologist
Dr. John Meyer, Physiologist
Dr. Albert Mills, Animal Embryologist/Reproductive Physiologist
Colin W. Mitchell, Geography
Dr. Tommy Mitchell, Physician
Dr. John N. Moore, Science Educator
Dr. John W. Moreland, Mechanical engineer and Dentist
Dr. Henry M. Morris (1918–2006), founder of the Institute for Creation Research.
Dr. Arlton C. Murray, Paleontologist
Dr. John D. Morris, Geologist
Dr. Len Morris, Physiologist
Dr. Graeme Mortimer, Geologist
Dr. Terry Mortenson, History of Geology
Stanley A. Mumma, Architectural Engineering
Prof. Hee-Choon No, Nuclear Engineering
Dr. Eric Norman, Biomedical researcher
Dr. David Oderberg, Philosopher
Prof. John Oller, Linguistics
Prof. Chris D. Osborne, Assistant Professor of Biology
Dr. John Osgood, Medical Practitioner
Dr. Charles Pallaghy, Botanist
Dr. Gary E. Parker, Biologist, Cognate in Geology (Paleontology)
Dr. David Pennington, Plastic Surgeon
Prof. Richard Porter
Dr. Georgia Purdom, Molecular Genetics
Dr. John Rankin, Cosmologist
Dr. A.S. Reece, M.D.
Prof. J. Rendle-Short, Pediatrics
...Dr. Jung-Goo Roe, Biology
Dr. David Rosevear, Chemist
Dr. Ariel A. Roth, Biology
Dr. Jonathan Sarfati, Physical Chemistry
Dr. Joachim Scheven Palaeontologist:
Dr. Ian Scott, Educator
Dr. Saami Shaibani, Forensic physicist
Dr. Young-Gi Shim, Chemistry
Prof. Hyun-Kil Shin, Food Science
Dr. Mikhail Shulgin, Physics
Dr. Emil Silvestru, Geology
Dr. Roger Simpson, Engineer
Dr. Harold Slusher, Geophysicist
Dr. E. Norbert Smith, Zoologist
Arthur E. Wilder-Smith (1915–1995) Three science doctorates; a creation science pioneer
Dr. Andrew Snelling, Geologist
Prof. Man-Suk Song, Computer Science
Dr. Timothy G. Standish, Biology
Prof. James Stark, Assistant Professor of Science Education
Prof. Brian Stone, Engineer
Dr. Esther Su, Biochemistry
Dr. Charles Taylor, Linguistics
Dr. Stephen Taylor, Electrical Engineering
Dr. Ker C. Thomson, Geophysics
Dr. Michael Todhunter, Forest Genetics
Dr. Lyudmila Tonkonog, Chemistry/Biochemistry
Dr. Royal Truman, Organic Chemist:
Dr. Larry Vardiman, Atmospheric Science
Prof. Walter Veith, Zoologist
Dr. Joachim Vetter, Biologist
Dr. Stephen J. Vinay III, Chemical Engineering
Sir Cecil P. G. Wakeley (1892–1979) Surgeon
Dr. Tas Walker, Geology/Engineering
Dr. Jeremy Walter, Mechanical Engineer
Dr. Keith Wanser, Physicist
Dr. Noel Weeks, Ancient Historian (also has B.Sc. in Zoology)
Dr. A.J. Monty White, Chemistry/Gas Kinetics
Dr. John Whitmore, Geologist/Paleontologist
Dr. Carl Wieland, Medicine/Surgery
Dr. Clifford Wilson, Psycholinguist and archaeologist
Dr. Kurt Wise, Palaeontologist
Prof. Verna Wright, Rheumatologist (deceased 1997)
Prof. Seoung-Hoon Yang, Physics
Dr. Thomas (Tong Y.) Yi, Ph.D., Creationist Aerospace & Mechanical Engineering
Dr. Ick-Dong Yoo, Genetics
Dr. Sung-Hee Yoon, Biology
Dr. Patrick Young, Chemist and Materials Scientist
Prof. Keun Bae Yu, Geography
Dr. Henry Zuill, Biology
-Matt
Matt
No one said anything about you being uneducated. Ignorance and stupidity are two completely different things.
And to Grant if he's still reading because I liked his arguments, I did reply to you. It's just up a few comments.
Alex
Could dinosaurs have walked the Earth with man? well, yes. And they still do. From a secular world view crocodiles and sharks haven't changed much in millions of years. Which means they are "dinosaurs" and they walk the earth with us. Also, it seems that the bigger an animal is the less there are. and the smaller something is the more there are, like bugs. I think dinosaurs were hunted to extinction. This makes perfect sense when you consider how many species this has already happened to. If there were no conservation laws I'm sure a lot more would be too. When Europeans settled North America there were millions of Bison. The herd would start to come by and three days later it was still going by. In a short time the American Bison herd was almost hunted to extinction. The population is still extremely small today. Early man could have done this to dinosaurs easily. I suggest that the large dinosaurs had small populations and were wiped out. And we know that flash fossilization can occur or very rapid fossilization so there is no need for millions of years to go by to turn T-Rex into rock. Also, Alexander the Great and Marco Polo are just two great explorers to talk about "dragons" on their adventures. Marco Polo wrote in his book "Here are found snakes and huge serpents, ten paces in length and ten spans in girth (meaning 50 ft. long and 100 inch circumference). At the fore part, near the head, they have two short legs, each with three claws, as well as eyes larger than a loaf and very glaring. The jaws are wide enough to swallow a man, the teeth are large and sharp, and their whole appearance is so formidable that neither man, nor any kind of animal can approach them without terror. Others are of smaller size, being eight, six, or five paces long." Sounds like a dinosaur to me. There are stories of dragons from all over the world in every culture throughout the ages. Are they all lying? Is it all folklore? Was Alexander the Great a liar? I don't think so. I think what's more logical than every civilization ever being liars is that these people walked with dinosaurs(and then killed them all).
-Matt
Matt
What does that have to do with anything?
Alex
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