Many Atheists have stumped Christians with a simple question for years. One person, a former Atheist turned Christian, who calls them-self ASA Jones, appears to finally have an answer. S/he posted the following message on this web site http://www.ex-atheist.com/. The following message is unedited, followed by my response.
The Question: Can the Christian god create a rock so big that he can’t lift it?
ASA Jones’ answer:
“My 7 year old daughter provided me with one of the best answers to this question; ‘I can't give you a smart answer to a dumb question!’
The question is constructed in such a way that no matter how one answers it, God's omnipotence is compromised. If one answers 'no', then God cannot create such a rock, thus God is not powerful enough to do something, therefore He is not 'all powerful'. If one answers 'yes', God creates a rock that He cannot lift, but because He cannot then lift it, God is not powerful enough to do something, therefore He is not 'all powerful'.
However, when we examine the question by analogy, its unfairness is made known. Compare the 'rock' question with the following:
A genius is so smart that he should be able to successfully pass any test, including a test that would qualify him as an idiot.
It is obvious that the 'rock' question itself contains a contradiction. In other words, the question itself does not make logical sense. It's the same type of contradiction that is made when we say that someone has accomplished the impossible. If they have, then it wasn't impossible to begin with. We see language at its logical limits; we understand what is being said (someone has accomplished what was previously thought to have been impossible to accomplish) but the language that is used to convey the idea makes it logically incomprehensible.
Rephrased, the 'rock' question is actually asking, "Is God so powerful that he can successfully do anything, including things that he couldn't do?" It would seem, then, that the most correct answer would be 'no'. God cannot do those things that God cannot do. (And, yes, the Bible does say that there are things that God cannot do.) No matter how big a rock is created, God will always be able to move it. God is not powerful enough to compromise His own power.
However, if we get beyond the deficiency of language in order to understand the concept behind the question, the answer in the affirmative can suffice just as well. When we say that God is all powerful, the definition need not be carried to hyper-literalism that renders it incomprehensible. 'All powerful' can be taken as hyperbole and be more accurately defined as 'the most powerful thing that can possibly exist'. Can the most powerful thing that can possibly exist create a rock so large that it could not lift it? Yes, it certainly could. Although we may ask why, and if, it would choose to do such a thing, it would still remain the most powerful thing that exists.
Despite the above argumentation, I still prefer the answer, ‘I can't give a smart answer to a dumb question!’”
----
My response:
Mr. Jones,
If I were to judge your brief essay on accuracies, I would have to congratulate you, because as far as I can see, the majority of your statements are correct. In fact, you inadvertently proved an atheistic point. Perhaps you’ve gone back to your roots and didn’t even realize it.
Your most impressive point of all is: “It is obvious that the 'rock' question itself contains a contradiction. In other words, the question itself does not make logical sense.” That’s the point! The question is asked simply by reapplying the same biblical logic that describes Yahweh, only in the form of a question to make the believer think about how illogical the answer could be. It’s not actually meant to be answered, because both answers are impossible, but they are stated in the Bible as if they are true. This is exactly why we ask it.
A married bachelor cannot exist by definition. Regardless of how you spin it, the bottom line is, you’re either married or you’re not. You can’t be both. We see the same conundrum in the Bible.
Yahweh is said to have multiple contradicting powers.
1. He knows all, including the future.
2. He can’t be wrong.
3. He can change the future.
Think about these for a moment. If he already knows what’s going to happen, and he can’t be wrong about what he knows, that means if he alters the future, what he thought was going to happen is now different. So, he was either wrong, or he can’t change the future because he already knows what’s coming.
One being, regardless of how superior, cannot be both all-powerful, and all-knowing. It’s simply illogical to be both, and that is the point of the rhetorical question. It’s not actually about a rock. Perhaps you felt it was a “dumb question” because you misunderstood its intent.
The unfairness you speak of comes directly from the biblical description of the god you are defending. Atheists did not create the unfair logic here; we just reformatted it as a question to force the Christian apologists to see the illogical basis behind their metaphysical assertions about their god.
So, what has every Christian apologist done when faced with illogical statements in the Bible? You claim hyperbole, of course. Beginning in Matthew 10:34, where Jesus allegedly said: “I did not come to bring peace, but a sword, to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother…” is of course, just an exaggeration according to Christian apologists. But a talking snake and donkey; yes, those were real.
Moreover, Yahweh simply spoke “Let there be light,” and there was light. He created the earth and every animal in the world out of nothing with his supernatural powers, but required a man’s rib as materials to create a woman. This is the type of theistic logic that loses me beyond belief.
It’s a tired concept to pick and choose what is literal fact and what is hyperbole in the Bible, but the typical Christian spin-doctor apologist has mastered it. For many of us, the thinking doesn’t stop with the canned Christian answer.
You pointing out that the ‘rock’ question is impossible to answer, is simply stating what we Atheists already knew before we asked you to answer it. The question is impossible to answer because it’s impossible for your god to exist.
I sincerely hope you reconsider your post, and reply here with an actual response to the meaning behind the question, and a reply to the Atheist assertion of the impossible facts that describe gods; instead of focusing on the semantics of the words used in the rhetorical questions we ask.
I look forward to hearing from you.
David Smalley
46 comments:
It has always been my opinion that if you are able to convert back to a Christian, you were never an atheist in the first place. No one could go back after learning what I know about religion and really be a believer again, though you might fake your way through for the sake of relatives who pressured you to reconvert.
The rock question is actually a very good one. I as a Christian can honestly admit that its a tough one to answer. The only thing that I could point out is that the rock would have to be larger than the universe itself. The reason that I say that is we have a few scientific "puzzles" in the bible that are difficult for others to answer like the passage "He stretches out the heavens" from Psalms 104:2(refering to the red shift of stars). If God could do that, then there could be no rock too big for him to lift unless it were larger than the heavens (universe). Cool blog, thanks for inviting me.
John from religion class at Kaplan
DW,
I agree with your insight. Knowing what I know about religions, to the point which confirms my Atheism, I could never turn back. I would have to equate that to convincing an adult there really IS a Santa Claus. It just doesn't work.
John,
Thanks for visiting. According to my web site reporting statistics, basically everyone from the World Religions class last night came to the site. In fact, the number of hits just in the hour immediately following class was more than double the number of students we had. I applaud you for having the courage to post.
When we start talking about the size a rock would have to be for the Christian god not to lift it, we can get ridiculous really quick. To determine a size of one property to ascertain if Yahweh could move it, we would have to determine the size and strength of Yahweh himself. It’s easy to say “all powerful” and sound very mystic, but this is a physical task we are asking of him, so we must have a physical explanation of how the event would take place. He is said to exist "outside the universe, and outside of time itself," which could make him larger than the universe. The biblical context doesn't really talk about the physical size of any god, because there are no physical properties, hence the term 'metaphysical.'
Theoretically, we can say it's even incomprehensible for a metaphysical being to pick up a pebble. After all, the being is said to be in the spiritual world, while the pebble is in the physical world; much like the Christian conundrum of the physical body of Jesus ‘ascending’ to heaven. Where did he go? Up? A physical body would only go up so far before hitting the atmosphere and disintegrating, but not before freezing. This is the scientific information the writers of these stories did not have when they were creating these myths.
These are the types of things that point to the impossibilities of a god even existing in the first place. How would metaphysical fingers wrap around a physical rock, regardless of how large? Would it just have to magically float, or would a being actually pick it up?
As we begin to answer the 'rock question' we find that there are so many more questions involved, each of them pointing to the impossibility of metaphysical beings in the first place. And like I mentioned to Mr. Jones in my original post, that’s the entire point of the question.
That question is really stupid. For my response go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w3dyw4Zt3s
Jason,
I watched your video regarding this question. And I also watched your video on how you were a homosexual, but have since been ‘saved’ from that lifestyle. I will address both.
You began your ‘rock’ response by saying it’s a stupid question, and the point of the question is to make Christians say that their god can’t do something. That’s not the point of the question.
As I stated in my original post, which was a response to Mr. Jones, I informed the readers that the point of the question was to make you think of how illogical the definition of any god is. We don’t really expect an answer. So if you think it’s a stupid question, you have misunderstood its rhetorical intent.
Now on to your more touching video about your homosexuality.
Jason, I saw a very hurt man in that video. I saw a good man; a struggling man that has a good heart, and a natural desire to do good things, but thinks that because he has natural desires that he doesn’t understand, he is inherently a bad man, and an evil sinner who should repent or be punished.
That deeply saddens me, and is the primary reason I am in opposition of religions. It breaks very good people into thinking they are worthless. Religion is a bully, and Jason, you’ve been a victim.
I truly wish you could experience the freedom and love of being an Atheist and a Secular Humanist. Once you have the realization that we do; you are no longer afraid of who you are.
You see in the Bible, such as 1st Corinthians 14:34 and 1st Timothy 2:11, that women were suppressed. This was obviously not a book inspired by a timeless, peaceful being, but instead, one that was written by archaic men who used it to control those around them. The sinfulness said to be in homosexuality is no different.
You talk about repentance being needed for homosexuality, and people not really being saved. Well, Jason, if you’ve read Exodus 35:2, you know that you should be put to death for working on Sunday. You should also be put to death for homosexual acts, according to Leviticus 20:13. It doesn’t speak of repentance; it speaks of immediate death; no questions asked.
Deuteronomy 21:18 tells us to kill children that are misbehaving. We obviously cannot follow any of these laws today, nor do I think you support any of them. I surely hope you don’t support those passages, including the ones that are suppressive of women.
With that said, we can begin to discredit the Bible as a ‘Holy Book’ inspired by an all-powerful, timeless being, because it obviously has time constraints of the 1600-year era in which it was written. If it truly had timeless inspiration, it would always be modern.
Religion has been used as a control mechanism for those that feel more comfortable in a group-psychology environment. But it saddens me to see you suffering and struggling with internal desires that we both know you still have, but that you are learning to control because you are afraid ¬¬– afraid to be Jason.
Being an Atheist and a Secular Humanist allows you to use that good heart to do kind things and reach out to people in need and help them without making them feel horrible about themselves, and go home crying in bed at night out of fear. It allows you to hold the door open for the guy behind you, simply because you want to help, not because a god is watching you. It allows you to finally be at peace and accept who you are. There is no greater feeling. I assure you, that is as close to heaven as any of us will ever get.
If you were to study religions other than Christianity, you would begin to see a pattern of control across many languages, and see Christianity for just another language of control. Hundreds of thousands of aboriginals in the world have never heard the terms ‘hell,’ or ‘sin. ‘ They have no concept of a ‘devil.’ Instead, many of them practice what’s called animism (worshipping objects) and ancestor worship (the deification of passed loved ones). Even still, there are practices and rituals that are controlled by the head of the family, or religion. The leader uses these beliefs to control the tribe.
The same holds true for Christianity, and I really hope you step back and take a more objective view of this. That just makes me sick about religion, and I hope we can talk further on this.
You were not born evil. Sin isn’t real; it’s made up to keep you under control. The feelings and desires you have are genetic, and it has been scientifically proven that you are born that way. Please, let me help you.
I agree with DW… I just do not see an atheist who understands why there can’t be an Abrahamic God, and has given it extensive thought, ever reverting back to such childish superstitions…
With that said, we can begin to discredit the Bible as a ‘Holy Book’ inspired by an all-powerful, timeless being, because it obviously has time constraints of the 1600-year era in which it was written. If it truly had timeless inspiration, it would always be modern.
Really great point, I’ve never thought of this like that.
Thanks for the comment, Alex. How someone could go from reason to religion baffles the best of us.
The greatest gift we got from our God (besides His grace) is our free-will. Isn't that ironic that your choice to not believe that He (God) exist is directly from the God you turn away from. Pretty weird isn't it. Things that make you say HMMMMM!
The answer to the question "Can the Christian god create a rock so big that he can’t lift it?" can easily be answered with an absolute "no". If God is infinitely big as the Bible puts it, than the rock must also be atleast infinitely big(can't go any bigger than that). Therefore the rock has no dimensions and is not a rock. One of the characteristics of a rock is that is has a certain witdh, height and depth. God can't contradict Himself by creating something out of matter with limitless dimensions. The universe is His creation and there are laws put into it like gravity. laws that do't just appear out of nothing I would like to add. His creation is filled with matter of a certain dimension and mass. So, if God would change that to an extent that rocks can be infinitely big, He would break His own principles and thus contradict Himself for our pleasure to prove He is allpowerful. Therefore I must conclude that the Bible does not contradict itself in the context of this perticular paradox.
God is Spirit, a being that is not controlled by the laws of nature but a Being who created those laws. It is not a lack of power that God couldn't simple lift a rock, but a matter of principles and personality.
One of His characteristics is that He created mankind to rule the earth. If God would alter/manipulate let's say the future absolutely, that would also be contradictory to that principle. Again, it's a matter of knowing Him, not reasoning who He might be and how powerful He might be. Whether someone likes Him or not and agrees with His creation is a different matter.
Again Maarten,
As I stated in my original post, which was a response to Mr. Jones, I informed the readers that the point of the question was to make you think of how illogical the definition of any god is.
In an effort to explain what "God" can or can't do, now we're off on the topic of defining a rock, and saying things be "infinitely big." Do you see how placing "God" as the answer only draws more questions?
We don’t really expect an answer to it. You have misunderstood its rhetorical intent.
"As I stated in my original post, which was a response to Mr. Jones, I informed the readers that the point of the question was to make you think of how illogical the definition of any god is."
I have thought about it, and it is not illogical to me. I do not share that opinion, sorry. The only way to think about a question like this effectively is trying to answer it. If I would not try that, how do you expect me to think about it? It is...a question and it's approach is finding an answer.
Neither is this question illogical for those I know who experienced real miracles from God which are beyond anyones understanding.
"Do you see how placing "God" as the answer only draws more questions?"
No I do not...
In fact, I think my answer to the question is quite clear and logical and God answered many more question in my life. I agree that alot of questions remain unanswered. That said, this is the case for every human being, believer or not. Man is by nature inquisitive wanting an answer to evey question he has.
The question is posted to convince the world that the "Christian" God does not and can not exist when people start to think, because it is illogical that he exists, right?
My point is, if the question is answered logically en correct, than your rhetrical intent (the psuedo answer to the question) is incorrect. You just didn't expect this answer.
I am a christian who has been really struggling with doubt lately. I have looked into many religions; Islam, Judiasm, and Buddhism. I was a practicing buddhist about 5 years ago before I became a christian. I am struggling with doubts about God and Jesus and it seems the more I look the more doubts I have. I just want to be done with all religions. I have a wife and 2 daughters. My wife is a christian and she has been a christian all of her life. This puts me in an ackward position. Recently I talked openly about some of my doubts. She listened. My daughter asked me this past sunday if I stopped believing in God would we stop going to church. Honestly, I am a good man with a kind heart. I have an extremely truth oriented disposition about belief. I am struggling with being authentic. Being true to my conscience. Any advice.
I understand what you're going through, because I've been there.
I wanted to be a better Christian because I figured that would make me a better man. I felt bad about my doubts and felt responsible for leading my wife and two children down the right path.
I set out on a 13 year journey of investigating religions, psychology, and culture. I made a decision, was very happy with it, and just finished writing a book on it that's currently being edited for production.
There's so much to cover, I'd hate to do it through a blog/forum. I've never offered this to a reader before, but if you'd like to email me directly with a phone number, I'd be happy to call you to help you through this. If not, we can just correspond via email until you're okay with whatever you decide.
I know I can help, because I've helped myself, and I've never been happier and more content with my life than I am right now.
It's your choice, and I hope to hear from you soon.
davidcsmalley@gmail.com
I emailed you yesterday. Just to let you know that I responded. I do appreciate the offer and would love to hear from you.
Why did you delete my comment?
Because it was more of a message to me regarding how to contact ASA Jones. It did not pertain to the discussion. I got the message and removed your comment. Once I'm certain you got this, I will delete both of these as well. Is that approved?
"It has always been my opinion that if you are able to convert back to a Christian, you were never an atheist in the first place."
What a load of horse-crap. This is why some atheists really bug me: they're so arrogant that they can't come to grips with the fact that some atheists may change their mind. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, us atheists are so superior and correct in every way that no one could possibly change their mind. whatever happened to being reasonable? Whatever happened to thinking for oneself? or constant questioning and doubting?
in my humble opinion, any religious or non-religious person who changes their mind is a true skeptic. This is a person who always doubts, always questions and is never satisfied with the answer; who strives to get closer and closer to the truth -- not blindly accepting/believing/supporting in dogma, religious or secular.
By the way, I'm an atheist.
Alex,
For starters, your opinion is anything but humble! I thank you for your post nonetheless.
I believe the point that person was trying to make is that if one is a 'skeptic,' always doubting and constantly changing their mind, they are not an atheist. An atheist has made up his mind, and knows in his heart what the evidence points to.
If a person claims to be an atheist, and then finds themselves as a Christian, they took the title of atheist prematurely, and were never an atheist to being with, but a skeptic of Christianity. There is a difference.
Christians and other theists often say "they were lost, but now found," or "they were blinded, but now they see." The person was just making the case in the opposite direction, stating that they can't understand how someone could come to the realization of evolution, atheism, and science, and then turn around and reject all of that for a myth and creationism.
It has nothing to do with an atheist being arrogant, it's about astonishment of how someone could reject the scientific mind they once had. It's akin to a 34 year old man reverting back to believing in Santa after 28 years of knowing better. It's hard to understand.
Hi David,
Just wonder..do u have any good memories from the period u was a Christian..?
Greetings from Holland, Amsterdam
The question itself makes God self contradictory so the real question behind it answers itself. God cannot exist. But it has nothing to do with the real nature of God because a contradictory God cannot exist. All it states is that if God does exist He cannot be contradictory.
The very thought of any god being all powerful and all knowing, and timeless, is contradictory. If one knows the future as a fact, he cannot change it, otherwise his fact will be false. If one can change the future, it is not yet predestined, which means it cannot be known.
Athiest of believer
Homosexuality is wrong
in the idea of evolution and survival of the fittest gays play no help in the carry out of a species or serve any purpose to mankind as a whole and where as religion is concered if you believe in God then the bible states man should not lie with man. either way gay is not okay and bullets for those that believe it is. to say homosexuality is genetic then you must therefore execpt that pedophiles may have a shared genetic trait. though even if genetics has a play the mind is stronger than the desires of the flesh therefore just as any addiction it can be overcome. yet some will argue that people who hate gay people must be gay. i tell you it is the actions not the thoughts that make a man therefore me thinking murder does not make me a murderer but your blood on my hands do.
The human mind is limited. would you try explain to a dog what soap is when they can not comprehend bacteria?
I will respond to both recent Anonymous comments:
1. "Homosexuality is wrong"... there are multiple places in the animal kingdom where homosexuality is found. I agree with you that it's not conducive to survival of a species, but a gay person could no more force themselves to be with the opposite sex, than a straight person could force themselves to be with the same sex. It has to do with the amount of testosterone that's exposed to the fetus in utero that determines the sexual preference. The person truly cannot be blamed for what happened in their fetal development. Just a little more research into a fetus' exposure to male sexual hormones in the womb will clear this one of up for you.
As for hinting at killing those that do not agree with you; this isn't the place for that. Resulting to violence and murder only means that you've ran out of things to say. Arm yourself with education, and understand that knowledge is power. Research how people become homosexual. Read the tests that have been done. Perform your own tests and research and write your blogs and essays proving your case. These fights can't be won with bullets, or one-on-one attacks. You will only diminish yourself as a leader in your cause when you resort to that type of behavior. Even those that support your stance now, will turn their backs on you once you break that boundary of losing control.
2. "Dogs and Bacteria..." I would not try to explain anything to a dog. I hope you don't believe your god sees you that way. Are we really to believe that we are just simple-minded drones, with laughable intellect just fumbling through our stupid lives waiting for divine intervention? I have way too much confidence and self-respect for that mentality, and I hope you do too.
You're not stupid. You use logic every day. Your brain comprehends things you couldn't comprehend 10 years ago. It's always evolving, thinking, solving problems... humans are extremely intelligent. I just can't give up when the questions get harder, and say that it "must be a god" to pretend to have an answer. Just keep asking, and keep searching.
you say you hope i do not compare myself to a dog yet you talk with about as much sense as a child. you try and speak with words that are not your own only the basis for which you hope to believe. You believe the brain comprehends things that it could not have in years past i call you a liar. the human mind is a marvelous thing and we are a unique species. we are not mindless drones or simple minded in comparison to what we know on this earth. The mind does comprehend things now that it has not then but only because information has been continuesly built upon recorded and past on through the years. With knowledge of times past and test long performed by others we are able to understand and comprehend these things. moron you are for trying to argue this point you have not ground to stand on.
Point 2 no score here you need to up your education and get back to me
Do not argue a point by saying that animals do it so it must be okay and then turn around and say that you are better than animals and do not belong in the same category as them. Which is it david? I say that you are better than a dog or the rest of the animal kingdom for that matter. you make a known choice to conduct in that behavior same as I make a known choice to exterminate the gay community. To talk nonsense about these test (being preformed for which you have not partaken only going on faith of what others say), then you must also except that yes you are a mindless drone driven by the steers of a predetermined getup therefore all your questioning and understanding mean nothing when it is a problem hardwired within you. If what you are saying is correct however; than do not talk of violence as being fit of those who lack words but rather say it is the xzy or whatever chromosone that is now being fitted to the genitic makeup that spurs violence. yes let us say that is something which can not be helped that yours and others stupidity drives me to kill because after all talk is empty and action hold weight. RAther no I say this to except homosexuality as a no choise campaign is to say that rapist and pedophiles are all as intergral to society because there genitics and upbring too determine there place in life not a clear and consience decision because as you say a homo can not lay with one of the opposite sex and more than a straight person could lay with one of the same. You sir have the mentality of a child who speaks of ignorance on a whole new level and hold beliefs out of the shear fact that they suit a purposes to your life only at the moment in which you hold them. Homosexuals murders and pedophiles all make knowing clear distinct choices for their actions just as addicts can restrain so could these people, or yet again let me say therefore me thinking does not make me a murderer only blood on my hands. or will you call me a liar and forgive the death of your family as a gentic disorder and move along as a animal with a simple mind
Wow. I think someone needs to track Anonymous's ISP and report him to authorities for psychological testing. This individual is disturbed...and ill.
lol i like you jason cuz ur fucked
lol i like you jason.... ur fucked
"Many Atheists have stumped Christians with a simple question for years."
Many atheists feel satisfied with "refuting" someones reasoning on a blog which they aren't likely to read rather than addressing someone through more direct means (i.e. email). Many also assume that because someone hasn't responded to an online query, that must mean that they can't. Funny how the world works. :D
"One person, a former Atheist turned Christian, who calls them-self ASA Jones, appears to finally have an answer."
Nonsense. A.S.A Jones didn't "finally" provide an answer. She answered the question, but it's not as if this and just about every other question which many atheist" believe to have " hasn't been answered before. There's nothing new under the sun, my friend.
Alas, in response to your rebuttal . . .
You claim that the question is based on reapplying Biblical logic. Unfortunately, it is through this claim alone that I (and anyone else reading) have reason to undermine your entire analysis. I find it interesting that you've quoted A.S.A Jones response to this question as it includes the simple fact which I am referring to. As Mrs Jones states, the Bible lists things which God cannot do. This brings us to the conclusion that it's claims regarding the powers of God are indeed mostly hyperboles.
So no, this isn't even a matter of "picking and choosing." This is basic reading comprehension. It is illogical to dismiss/ignore crucial information when attempting to come a conclusion on a matter, my good sir. Please keep this in mind the next time you "stump" a Christian apologist, okay ;)
There is a God. And although many here will read this and argue in there own ways just you lookin into these types of blogs links deep longing you may not even realize yourselves the knowledge that you know it is true. Your lives you live are in daily protest of your beliefs to the contrary. In proof I say you all live to a degree of moral dignity and follow social order and hold family ties. Evolution could not instill such things within individuals and all other marvels of life any more than you could go out into the woods, through sticks in the air and expect a house to spring forth. If scientology or reincarnation is your guide than you are still wrong but at least you find real purpose in life and live for it. To all those however that do not share in any of the three beliefs but for those who belive this is by chance that we are here and death is the end, i say you call yourself a liar everyday in actions. But if life is by chance and death is the end then that means your life now is meaningless and all you hold dear to the heart is of no consequence. family ties no longer should bind you social justice should not effect you and your moral compass should no longer guide you. in retrospect if evelution or a big bang did instill theses beliefs in you or someone else did then it is all to the contrary of your existence and merely a hindrence to your life. But my words still shock you and you know you are a slave to life and you desire more than the fleeting chance to survive before no of this matters any more. Admit it or not its there in the way you live your life that there is more and only a god could have put these beliefs into your being. otherwise why not free yourself from the moral compass and social ties break down societys laws and live only for yourself because others not even family matter and there is no more purpose in there life than yours except to the fact that you are all that matter and any gain over another you must take becuase when you die it no longer matters and if they are to die then there life is usless then as is now. My words shock you and it is proof that their is a god just as there is a thing as right and wrong something that would otherwise hold no meaning if there was not. along with a number of other arguments i could make this is the first to matter. I pray for you all that you may find god. but if not please free yourself of the obligations that life bring though which hold no meaning if life itself will in the end hold no purpose but mearly came by chance. god bless
Actually,
A large portion (upwards of 92%) of my readers are Christians. That would suggest just the opposite is true: it is the Christians that are searching for answers they can't find in the Bible or in their prayers. It is the Christians that have the same questions I've had, and the answers didn't make sense when approached logically, so they've found like-minded people to discuss things with (anonymously of course).
My blog is not overflowing with Atheists trying to make sense of this--but Christians doing research, and stretching to make their beliefs fit in with reality or changing their beliefs.
As I stated on the air yesterday, there are MULTIPLE ethical and moral systems that are not religiously based. Murders, rapes, and child crimes happen at roughly the same rate to all humans, regardless of the dominant religion in their country or area. Christians don't agree on all morals, so obviously, there is no standard moral code of which they follow. Try again.
Christianity does not, in any way, hold a monopoly on "good." One only needs to read the Old Testament and see the murderous rampages of Yahweh to see this.
Anything that commands deaths of infants, and innocent women (as the story of Amelk confirms) and anything that condones slavery, allows mass murders, and strikes people with diseases out of revenge, should NOT be in control of morals, and to think otherwise is just ridiculous.
David i pray that you find god. To revert back to earlier the quetion of the rock I say there are many sides to this arguement and many ways to give it back and forth. But can god create a rock in which he cannot move the anwnser is NO. That would contridict his being correct. Yet anything created can be destroyed. It would be ridiculous to ask man to create something he can not destroy for in the same sense as soon as it is created it may have once been something indestructible but the very esscense of it creation gives a new power over the creater to be able to destroy it. If many of the people here are christians then that is fine and there are many types of religions this is true. But a god who loves all of you will not hate you for searching and i say only to you to continue searching. If your religion does not have all the right awnsers find the one closest to what you find to be right. Trust me it will be okay in the end. God knows the heart. And as far as moral codes yes we have the ten commandments from God. Yet in an imperfect world full of sin exceptions have to be made the bible provides examples for you to apply in your own life, if possible. My rant of moral controls David that which you in a way make know what I already said if you want to be athiest David the only person in this world who matters is you, not your family, the old woman at the grocery store, not your friends, in this regard they are all means to and end and the end being, your pleasure. David embrace what you know is true in your heart because you obviously believe in morals. And for all those christians out there doubting... keep fighting the good fight and keep searching for God because he is there and he loves you. I ask if there is no God then as you ask about the rock i ask about Evolution. To what accounting do we hold to the inherent desire to be connected with a higher power and find meaning in life? How do you explain altruism if God did not instill it inside of us. David you are living proof there is a God who cares because you do live your life bound to these principles never truely an Athiest in that everthing came by chance and life is meaningless and death is the end. Most all of you do. And you may try to argue this David and you all wrestle it in your own heads this firm conviction of maybe there is no God but the implications of such beliefs scare you. And even if they do not scare you, most of you will never truly except the idea that there is no God just as David here. We know such things as good and bad and try to do good and find someone in life whom we can love more than ourselves because God gave us love. I love you all and pray for you. Please keep up the good fight people, because the devil is just as real, and he will take you however he can just as he seems to have with David whom even though claims no God, and is right now in the Devils grasp, his lifestyle proves that there is a God because he is not living as a man who has nothing to live for. He is a confused soul who only knows now that he doesnt want to be with God
it is not that it can't but won't. what is the purpose of the rock?
Nixon
who created the devil
I feel sorry for you David. No not in that God sense lol but because of the people you have to put up with. I know how it can be, answering the same exact question over and over. Hearing the same insults and accusations over and over. Not only that but seeing these same questions possed at other people on other sites, seeing belivers use the exact same accusations and insults on other people on other sites.
You must be angry at god, you must have a very sad life, you must have no meaing in your life, you must have no morals, you can't be trusted, you don't know what you are talking about, don't speak on something you have no understanding of, you misrepresent *insert religion*..blah blah fuckin blah.
Not only the insults and accusations but putting up with assertions that believer IN NO WAY try to prove or back up. In fact, going between responses it is so mind numbingly clear that even believers on this site contratdict eachother with their posts! *i'm talking about looking and reading through posts on many topics on this site, not just the posts on this topic alone for clarification"
You must have an amazing patience because with some of these people I couldn't hold my tongue.
You have my respect David. I've only just discovered this site today and have never heard of you before *been pouring over this for a few hours now* If even half of what you say about your self and what you do behind the public eye is true, well then I hope to accomplish just even half of that in my life.
You do these things from a "natural feeling" within yourself to better the world and the people around you. Not from fear of punishment or mandaite of a god. This represents the true meaning of selflessness.
Just to breakdown point by point if God knows the future, and he can change the future, then he knows that he is going to change the future duh! You guys are thinking too deep God isnt going to give you something the most uneducated man cant break down!
For you to say he is not All-powerful and All-knowning is a foolish thought. Why cant he be both he is a GOD remember you cannot place GOD on a human being level so we can never compare him to ourselves. Also alot of the contradicting questions in the bibles are Parables jesus says this himself Matthew chapter 13 and if you dont understand his parables then you dont understand him. Also Dan for you to make such a comment on the guys homosexuality was just plain evil you are not the one to judge God got him together. One GOD is a merciful god so he will forgive all sinners as long as they ask for it. Secondly you used a scripture from the old testment Levitius 20:13. However his punishment will not be death because he repented also thats why Jesus died for our sins in order for us to repent the old testment harsh consequences does not apply to those of the new testment era because that was the whole point of JESUS Hello.For the confused talk to a member of the Church of Christ we got all the FACTS for ya!
Philip and Dan well since you dont believe in anything what do you stand for? because a atheist technically has no self morals, goals, future assperations and so forth. For do you even love people because GOD is LOVE but since he doesnt exist how can you love?GOD isnt a crazy man telling us to do ridiculous things. Also what would be the point of dying since we not going nowhere why isnt it that no man cant no matter what drug, knowledge, or power live forever? Why do your loved ones die? Death wouldnt be real if God wasnt lets just use that as evidence.& death is real isnt it? correct me if im wrong! Thank you
God goes into a quantum state where he is simultaneously able and unable to create said rock. Therefore, the rock must go into a quantum state of simultaneously existing and not existing.
This is meant to be sarcastic, by the way.
Paris, your assumptions of what Atheist technically "don't" have is incorrect. Our morals, goals, future aspirations, and love come from within, from our own brain and desires. That is why it is so rewarding to do good, or live by our own choices, not based on any book, any religious figure, or any societal pressure. It is very clear to us that religious people in the past suppressed women, and gave reason to slavery, and it is very clear to us now that religious people are still suppressing women and homosexuals. We know it's wrong to suppress women and homosexuals, even some religious people know that. Why some? Because that's a problem when people derive morals from a book that's open to interpretation.
We know everyone eventually dies, including your loved ones. There is no point or reason to dying or life. And since we know we only have this one short and precious life, we should derive our own purposes of what we want to do with it. Helping others usually makes us feel better.
We Atheist stand for the real truth, the truth that it is okay to not know all the answers, to let science slowly answer more and more of it, and to correct the ones we have mistaken. To correct us when majority of believers believed the Sun rises and sets, when the Earth was flat, when slavery was justified, when women had no equal rights, when homosexuals have no equal rights, when animals have no equal rights...
Using death as an evidence of God is like using wrapped-present under a Christmas tree as an evidence of Santa Claus. When you believe Santa Claus exists will be the same time I believe God exists.
The poor guy probably saw the inescapable truth of this websites arguments (especially that "the fact mankind can imagine there being a God is a proof that there must be one.") check it out for a laugh or an annoyance:
http://www.andrewcorbett.net/articles/5-proofs.html
Very interesting post, and some very lively (as well as well-written) replies.
I'm a christian and recently became friends with an atheist and we have some interesting conversations so I decided to research more on my own.
I'm sure you've heard absolutely every answer in the book from Christians to the many questions you raise, but nonetheless I wanted to address the one about "God and the future".
You said " If one knows the future as a fact, he cannot change it, otherwise his fact will be false. If one can change the future, it is not yet predestined, which means it cannot be known." If God created the future (which I believe he did) than he has no reason to change it because he already knows what will happen and why and when etc. it's all his plan.
Also, I dislike "religion" with the connotations it holds/carries for most people today. It's become far too ritual and legalistic, especially Christianity and it's taken God almost completely out of the equation. Christian actually means "little Christ" and Christians are supposed to emulate Christ and his teachings, after all He's the one that refused to condemn the woman who committed adultery and the woman at the well who was unmarried and had lived with several men. He didn't condone their actions, but he made it clear they were not excluded from salvation in any way shape or form.
Also, to confuse things even more, I'm homosexual and have come to understand and believe that is the way God created me. Simple mistranslations (whether on purpose or not I don't know) from the original Greek and Hebrew texts clearly show that homosexuality is not condemned, David and Jonathan are proof of that but sadly most Christians turn a blind eye.
Anyway, I didn't mean for this to be so long but I started and just kept going. :)
Thanks for a very interesting, thought-provoking post!
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