After interviewing me on his radio show, "Live from Criswell," Dr. Barry Creamer received the following listener response on his web site. With the permission of Dr. Creamer, I've copied the text and pasted it here (unedited) to issue my own response.
February 16, 2010 at 6:21 AM David Hardt says:
Hi Dr. Creamer,
Approximately how much “air time” do you think Jesus would allow Mr. Smalley to have in order to spread his message against his Father? It wasn’t your interview with Mr. Smalley that completely saddended me. It was your comments that Mr. Smalley was actually a “very nice guy” and you enjoyed your time with him. The face of God is against Mr. Smalley and the spirit of the anti-christ is in him.
As a teacher of the Truth, you are held to a higher standard by God…as you know. Satan is the master of deception. Under the cover of “tolerance”, Satan made his way into the studios of Criswell College and got a huge platform at the hands of KCBI.
Mr. Smalley is a fool. He can bow down now, or he can bow down later…but he will bow down.
One more thing, I cannot believe that so-called “believing” churches in our area are inviting this anti-christ to sit down amongst them and have a conversation concering his anti-christ message. Makes you think…who exactly is the fool here…
Rebuke Mr. Smalley in the name of Jesus and allow God to turn him towards repentance and complete trust in the atoning sacrifice of His son…or not. God is sovereign. Step out of the way before Satan pulls everybody in with “nice” Mr. Smalley.
MY RESPONSE
Mr. Hardt,
Let me start by saying that I understand your concern, and realize that scripturally, you have valid points. After all, it is Matthew 12:30 that says, “He who is not with me is against me…” and Mark 9:40 that says, “for whoever is not against us is for us.”
I do not take your animosity personally, as I understand it is your religious convictions and faith that lead you to believe the way you do. I will not hold that against you, as I understand how powerful that can be.
What I stand for, is more of a civil rights issue than a religious one. You should know; if the U.S. President announced today that Christianity was no longer allowed to be practiced in this country, I’d be on the picket lines with you, fighting for your constitutional rights, and freedom of religion.
I do not wish to see a complete banishment of Christianity. I do, however, want to stand for the freedom of all citizens in this country, and prevent the discrimination of all people, regardless of their religious views. This was intended to be a free country, not a Christian nation.
My children should not have to go to a public school and be ridiculed for not believing. Families should not be separated with members ostracized due to religious convictions. Qualified applicants should not be turned down for government jobs due to a lack of belief. A person should not be considered “unethical” until they identify with a religion.
But why do we debate? The whole point here is, the Atheist says to all religions, “Before you will control my government, my family, or my career, you need to supply more proof than just faith.”
I must also point out that the “A” in Atheist does not represent “Anti” or “Against,” but rather “without.” The theist holds a belief in a deity, while the a-theist is without that belief. It’s really that simple. Saying that an Atheist is the opposite (or anti) any particular religion is like saying a doctor is the opposite of a disease. He studies it, and fights it from time to time, but also respects its power, while questioning its intent.
We stand aside from all belief systems, (including Satanic ones) saying each is without sufficient proof. As Dr. David Eller confirms in his book Atheism Advanced, the Atheist is more of one that discredits religions than opposes them directly (2007).
Mr. Hardt, people can be nice without religions. Adults can debate without hate. Opening the educational views on the airwaves of 90.9 KCBI allows Christian listeners to better deal with Atheists they encounter, and vice versa for Atheists encountering Christians. More than anything, it was important for listeners to hear an educated conversation between two men that disagreed without anger. If we had more of that, I honestly think the world would be a better place.
I’m not sure what you did last night, but I took my children out to eat at Logan’s Roadhouse, where we threw peanut shells on the floor, and ate desert out of tiny peanut buckets. I tucked my 5-year-old daughter into bed at 9, and realized that I forgot a permission slip for my son to play basketball at school, resulting in an email to his teacher begging for forgiveness.
I managed to have 2 solid hours of phone conversations with Christian preachers that are very good friends of mine, one of which I am debating in March. Once the kids were asleep, I continued my research into PhD programs, which I plan to enter early next year, to become a licensed psychologist.
My life isn’t much different from yours, aside from what we consider to be proof of a religion. I just don’t trust that what those men wrote as scriptures was inspired by something powerful, other than their own hopes and beliefs.
I assure you, I don’t have time to be the Anti-Christ—and I can’t imagine it paying very well at all.
55 comments:
I agree. But those on the Right want a Christian America. They do not believe in equality.
No one believes in unconditional equality. Even those of us that fight for civil rights, do not feel that criminals should be treated as free citizens. There are punishments and segregation from the undesirables based on their actions.
Most of the conservatives see non-believers as criminals, disobeying a holy doctrine. That's how they justify mowing over our rights. It's not that they don't believe in equality; they just don't see us as deserving of the same rights they have, because of our actions.
Dude, you handled that like a champ. I'm so embarrassed to be coming from the same camp as Mr. Hardt. That guy has got some serious fear and anger issues. Thanks for being cool about it.
On this show, you stated God could not exist and allow the things in Haiti with the school - nor allow evil to esists ss it does......
Do parents exists if their children make wrong choices?
Are you a parent? Do you exist?
Also - You stated your orginations if for the NON-RELIGIOUS - Actually you are very religious about your NO GOD !! Are you not?
You said this in your previous post "I just don’t trust that what those men wrote as scriptures was inspired by something powerful, other than their own hopes and beliefs"
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But you trust in a No-god and other alleged evidences of a no god - You trust in history books about Atheism
Why is that?
Parent's are dominant; not all-powerful. They have some level of control over their children, but not the same control and ability that the Christian god claims to have. If my child was trapped under a building, I would be helpless to save her. The Christian god supposedly has that power, yet does nothing. He watches them suffer, and cry out for help, and die.
Am I religious? Here's how Webster defines that term, let's visit each:
1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity [a religious person] [religious attitudes]
I do not believe in an ultimate deity or absolute reality or purpose, so this one doesn't fit me.
2 : of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances [joined a religious order]
I have celebrations with my family, but they are not religious in nature. Atheism is not a belief system, it is a lack of belief. We don't have a "code" we follow or any sort of manifesto of order. We are individual free-thinkers, not followers of any religion.
3 : scrupulously and conscientiously faithful
This is the closest one to pin me down, if you feel the need to qualify me. Faithful also has many definitions including 'trust.' I am faithful to my wife, meaning I'm trustworthy; and I have faith in my wife, meaning I trust her. I have faith that my son is capable of doing his homework; meaning I trust him. I trust science to give us accurate results, because it has done so multiple times, and proved to be beneficial to society.
Please look to the right, of this page and read my post called "The Faithful Atheist" for a better description of this.
But no, I am not a religious person. Even if you were able to somehow spin it that way, it doesn't prove that the Christian system of beliefs is the only true one, nor does it prove the Christian god exists.
I can't possibly trust in the lack of something. This isn't about god or no god-it's about the Christian belief system not having proof of their god.
What I do trust, is that which can be tested or experienced in repetition. I can't test love, but I've experienced it over and over, and experience is a reliable belief forming process.
I am not trying to profess some sort of belief system that you should follow. I have no doctrine that tells you what to eat, wear, or how to bow your head. I don't restrict women from speaking, like your bible does. I'm not prejudice of homosexuals, or people that work on certain days, and providng doctrine that says we should kill them, like the bible does.
I don't have an argument to make to convince you to follow me. My only argument, is that you accept the "possibility" of a god being out there somewhere as "proof" that the bible is the word of that particular god, when there's no real relationship between what we know in nature, and the stories of creation in the bible.
Books about 'Atheism' are just books about ethics, psychology, philosophy, sociology, and anthropology, which are all accepted sciences within the Christian community as well. You act as if I'm making a claim I can't prove, or that I'm trying to pull you in with all me "proof" of no-gods. I'm stating just the opposite.
It is the Christian that has asserted that your god rules the world and is responsible for my pain and successes, so the Atheist just says it's up to you to prove it.
One last thing: It's important to point out, that the books that are written on scientific subjects, including Atheism, are challenged daily by other Atheists as we continue to search for more answers.
We are constantly revisiting sciences such as evolutionary psychology, or cognitive development theories that were written by early psychologists, and challenging those techniques to see if they still work today.
We revisit the work of Hawking, and continue to research astrophysics to test theories about the Big Bang and the singularity, and other cosmological claims made by those early thinkers.
We do not accept anyone's claim as absolute knowledge, and no one is above being challenged or tested. That's how we move forward with information.
Claiming that one book--written nearly two thousand years ago over 1600 years, by 40 different authors, in 3 different languages, and is somehow an ultimate truth of an all-powerful creator, when it has so many scientific fallacies, and vowing to never challenge its authors or intent, is the opposite of progression as a society.
Smalley is the anti-christ...he turned me into a newt.
Well since you wrote it down, and it's your personal testimony, I suppose that qualifies as proof. I'm sold. You're a newt. Now I believe.
Wow, where do I start? I really enjoyed your responses Mr. Smalley...I love the break down of the word Atheist! I also just took my kidos to Logan's Roadhouse. We really love that place! Anyways like following you and reading your educated responses. Too bad the entire World doesn't think like you, it would be a much better place.
Well thanks. If I ever run for president, I'll count on your vote. (Only 299 Million more to go!)
Yes, I knew my newt logic would convince you. Now I think you are ready to find out who God really is....
God = Love
Love = Blind
Blind = Ray Charles
Therefore Ray Charles is God
Eat that anti-christ Smalley............
Stupid Smalley (High five to Dr. Creamer)
"What I do trust, is that which can be tested or experienced in repetition. I can't test love, but I've experienced it over and over, and experience is a reliable belief forming process."
But do you concede that there are some people who have never experienced love? Therefore they believe it does not exist? Or maybe it just does not exist for them?
If you have never experienced "God" how can you know it does not exist when the majority of the population of the world say that they have experienced "God". Let me take that back the majority says they believe in a God. The experience of God is probably less but not an insignificant number.
Your loss maybe, just like the guy who has never had love.
But you can kind of prove love, science has shown changes in the brain when love is being experienced. Science has also been able to measure changes in the brain and energy emittance from people who are experiencing "God" such as monks or remote healers.
These are facts
I do understand a little where you come from though as I grew up in a Baptist household. I was fully invested into my 20's. But as someone who has actually read their bible, as a good person with conscience and a loving heart, I questioned many things. I turned my back on the Christian God, because I could not as a thinking human being deny the gruesome, vicious and evil qualities the bible bestows on their God. Denying it doesn't make it untrue and the excuse of "There are just things we cant understand" just doesnt fly with me. We can understand, some of us are just blind on purpose, because the truth is too uncomfortable. It is an easy thing to resent and hold on to, it is much harder to release it and move on. You are still holding on.
Experiencing "God" is so much easier when you know what it isn't...lol.
You are very focused on the Christian God. The Christian God is not real. You know it, move on from it, it only holds back your own growth to focus so much energy on something you know is not truth. But "God" or whatever you want to call it is very real and experienced by many every day. Maybe if you looked for "God" elsewhere you might find the experience you have missed all your life, you were just looking in the wrong place.
You will never prove to Christians that their God is not real. Mostly because most of them do not read their bibles and when they do they read it with rose colored blinders. But they need it, they need something. Most people do need something because we are thrown here on this earth with absolutely no information, but an inner knowledge that there is more out there. We just dont know what it is because our physical bodies block it, so we either invent something or we search for something.
Leave them to their delusion, search for your own truth instead of trying to deny them theirs. You will be so much happier, you will see the world with new eyes... let it go, it is a fruitless effort.
Leave them to their delusion?
You may be familiar with Albert Bandura's 1965 experiment involving the Bobo dools, in which 3 groups of children were shown films that portrayed acts of aggression towards these dolls, and were then sent to the room to play with them.
One group was shown only the aggressive behavior, the second group was shown the aggressive behavior followed by punishment, and the third group was shown the aggressive behavior followed by praise.
The group that only witnessed the aggression, and the one that witnessed the aggression with praise acted the exact same way when released into the room to play—and that way was aggressive. The only behavior that was deterred was of the group that witnessed the consequences from the aggressive behavior. The conclusion here, is that a reward, in many instances, is the same as a lack of consequences. What kind of message are we sending by remaining silent?
My children are led to say "One Nation Under God" every morning in a public school that I help pay for. My money displays "In God We Trust," due to a law passed by our government, which arguably violates the First Amendment, when the question is asked: which god does "God" refer too?
Laws in at least 7 states prohibit "non-believers" from serving in a public office.
George H.W. Bush challenged the fact that Atheists shouldn't be considered as citizens or patriots.
For the April 2010 American Atheist magazine, we're doing a story on a Vietnam Veteran that was denied enrollment in the Alcoholics Anonymous program for refusing to acknowledge the existence of "God."
Children are stoned to death, starved in fasting rituals, beaten with whips, and even bound and buried alive due to archaic religious doctrine claiming to offer salvation in an afterlife.
Families are split up, marriages are destroyed, and people commit the most heinous of crimes—all in the name of their god.
So you can move on to bigger and better things if you'd like, but no, I will not leave them to their delusion, followed by a trail of destruction and discrimination of innocent people. Perhaps it is the armchair Atheist that is deluded.
Before these religions are permitted to have so much influence over our lives, our children, our money, and our government, they need to provide proof that their doctrine is infallible. I will challenge them until the day I day; and we'll see if it's fruitless.
Wow... very telling
What is telling?
Smalley is definately not the anti-christ. Maybe the cousin of Sarah Palin, but for sure not the anti-christ.
But you cannot prove there is NO GOD?
Also, on your issue with Haiti and how you qusetion why my God did not stop the things that happened there.
How would you explain the president calling for a 3 day prayer fast and over 3000 people attending....Then over 100 voodoo doctors departing from their evil practices and accepting, by faith, thet Jesus Christ is God, is the Messiah and accepting His salvation?
Now, regarding your issue with constantly revisiting science....Science in itself has been disproven by facts found in the Bible. But you keep searching and will continue to search until your heart and mind are open to faith in Christ....see you CHOOSE to have faith in that science, well actually you don't because if you would, you would not constantly keep revisiting it and look for a new journey and belief system.
Yes you are religious as you are faithfully devoted to atheism and you do beleive in an absolutely reality that there is no proof of my God; thus in your world, you believe in the absolutely reality of there bying NO god.
And Athiesm is most certainly a belief system- You believe in the lack of a god. But then again, even you have little faith in your own belief system of no god existing, because if you had faith in that, you would not continue to revisit, challenge, etc your own faith.
Yee of little faith, have no peace or rest.
Let's say God did not intervene as you feel He should have in Haiti.....Just as in my life and others here in the USA, we have sin and wrong doings all around us....If God would have stopped so much, so many people would continue in their sinful lifetyles. God turns evil into good in His timing. He is not a dictator, He is grace. But as much as he is love, He disciplines as well. Us in our finite minds are no able to comprehend Him, but by faith we accept that HE is all knowing and in control. See if perhaps if He would have stopped the earthquake, those 100 voodoo doctors would have never come to Him as they have now.
See he could STOP you in your wrong beliefs, and one day, He will. But, you are not ripe enough to encouter Him yet. But you will. This will be in His timing, but cannot happen until you encounter what faith and grace really are. He has already said every knee will bow and claim that he is Lord our God. That every means yours and your readers, follower, counter parts. But God wants you to want Him. He waits in your path for you to take the step towards Him. He is not going to make you choose, nor stop what you are doing. He wants you to come by pure faith.
Anon @ 10:53,
I certainly hope you are not saying the earthquake in Haiti was meant as a dsicipline from God.
It really does sadden me sometimes when I hear people say things like that. Bad things do happen to good people too.
God did not allow an earthquake to happen where children were killed and died horrible deaths just to punish a few. It probably makes God very sad that you see God in this way.
Yes God absolutely allows pain, suffering and sickness to happen. Just as we have happiness, relief and health. It all comes from God, the good and the bad.
Your purpose on this earth is to learn. And face it, what have you ever learned when times were perfect. We are not meant to walk through life happy and carefree all of the time, what would be the point of even being here then?
God is there to draw strength and wisdom from to get through your life lessons, but God does not punish or reward or intervene even. If you are able to connect with what God really is, your lessons are easier and quicker to learn. When you dont have the ability or have not learned how to use that sense of God or intuition of God, then your struggles are harder. But you will still have to go through them no matter what you believe in or dont believe in.
So no one in Haiti was punished or disciplined by God. Those people are definately going through a struggle right now. Be their relief not their judge. And pray they are able to recieve strength and wisdom from God to be able to get through to the other side of their current hardship.
Those are very strong souls who have chosen to go through such pain in this life. Help them through by not saying horrible things about their current plight.
Absolutely...God allows evil to happen. I have absolutely no idea why the earthquakw happened, why God did not stop it, why the innocent blood was shed. That pains me to no end. I also know that Jesus's innocent blood was shed and God did not stop that, either.
Why? For my sins, my wrong doings, etc. What I do know and have faith in, is that God is all knowing and all powerful. I TRUST in Him, not just the good, but I trust in what He allows.
The earthquake and deaths were bad, but I know and have seen the good coming from it.
Again, our fininite minds cannot fully comprehend the whys, but my heart has faith.
Your heart can't have faith. It is an organ that pumps blood through your body. Your faith only comes as result of you having a hopeful end with a lack of knowledge of how that end will occur. The definition of that gap between what you hope will happen, and what you know today, is faith.
It comes from your brain not being able to comprehend no life after death; no reward for your good; no punishment for your wrongs.
Faith doesn't lie in the heart. The heart is at work keeping you alive. It only has thoughts, feelings, and emotions in movies and cartoons. Think critically about what you are saying.
Well we can disagree on the Jesus' innocent blood was shed part.
God did not require a blood sacrifice, someone to be tortured and murdered and hung on a cross just to be able to say I forgive you. God is not that sadistic.
But yes, there is a gift in every bad thing. Learn to find it and you will see the world with new eyes. And if you want to know why God lets bad things happen you can find the answer if you simply ask, mean it and are open enough to hear the answer whether it coincides with your beliefs or not.
There is more than one meaning for the word heart.
Why do you say lack of knowledge of how that end will occur? That in itself makes no sense. Life will happen after my death. Your brain does not allow you to comprehend your lack of your own faith in no life after death.
So who created the organs in our body? Who created the conscience? Who or what creates our desire to have hope? Who or what created you?
Ah! But here is something to ponder...
Were you created at all, or were you always?
Energy does not die it just changes form.
The word "God" also has more than one meaning. Many who believe in God do not believe in the moral code of the Bible.
Although I do not agree with your ideas about God and your basic principles of how and why you live your life, I have been listening to this radio debate and do not think they have been fair. They do not allow you to respond after they disect everything you said. They twist your words. I do wonder though why you do not ask him more questions about his faith. He takes control of the interview and you have not been able to make him answer anything. You should be asking more questions of him, instead of allowing him to keep you on the defensive. Just some debate advice for the future.
Thanks for listening,
I will be going back soon with a chance to respond to these interviews and follow ups. I fully plan to ask more questions of the Christians, now that I have defended atheism.
I think it's only fair. Now the Christians can answer questions that the Atheist has of their faith.
The future debate is already won. God will be exhalted and His glory will reign. You are either willing to have faith in Him or your not. Those who are week and not willing to surrender their finite mind, will soon bow their knee to God.
March 1, 2010 4:39 PM
Anonymous said...
The word "God" also has more than one meaning. Many who believe in God do not believe in the moral code of the Bible.
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Then you do not believe in God.....
David Smalley said...
I can't possibly trust in the lack of something. This isn't about god or no god-it's about the Christian belief system not having proof of their god.
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Sure you do, David...You trust is the lack of us Christians not proving there is a god....You trust in your ongoing, scientific evidencens of there being proof of no god. Which you still have not proven there is not a god.
Remember proof and faith contradict each other. You have faith there is not god. I have faith int he one and only True God, Jesus Christ. The created are proof !!
"Anonymous said...
Then you do not believe in God....."
On the contrary, I do not believe in the christian God.
I not only believe in a God but I know God.
I could say that you may believe in God but you do not know God. If you believe what the bible tells you of God then you do not know God.
Knowing God is so much greater and life altering than simply believing in what a pastor or a book could ever tell you. God will speak to you if you have the ears to hear.
Smalley,
Wondering if you agree with this demonstration?
Atheists offer college students porn for bibles
http://www.wlbz2.com/news/watercooler/story.aspx?storyid=115116&catid=109
"On the contrary, I do not believe in the christian God. I not only believe in a God but I know God "...............
Wow...There is only one God, and that is the Christian God. All others fall way beneath and do not come close to him.
Acts 17:24–25 (NIV)
24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else
Colossians 2:18a
18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.
Matthew 6:24
24 “No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money
Those who worship “other gods” will ultimately face the same fate as the prophets of Baal at Mount Carmel where they were challenged by Elijah the prophet to a duel. God commands us not to serve other gods because there are no other gods except the ones we make ourselves.
“Blessed is the man who makes the Lord his trust, who does not look to the proud, to those who turn aside to false gods” (Psalm 40:4).
Genesis 1:1 (NIV)
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Jeremiah 32:17 (NIV)
17 “Ah, Sovereign Lord, you have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm. Nothing is too hard for you.
Psalm 90:2 (NIV)
2 Before the mountains were born
or you brought forth the earth and the world,
from everlasting to everlasting you are God
Psalm 139:7 (NIV)
7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
Malachi 3:6 (NIV)
6 “I the Lord do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.
John 5:24 (NIV)
24 “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
Genesis 3:9 (NIV)
9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”
Colossians 1:17 (NIV)
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Jeremiah 23:24 (NIV)
24 Can anyone hide in secret places
so that I cannot see him?”
declares the Lord.
“Do not I fill heaven and earth?”
declares the Lord
Deuteronomy 6:4 (NIV)
4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one
Matthew 28:19 (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Psalm 147:4–5 (NIV)
4 He determines the number of the stars
and calls them each by name.
5 Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
his understanding has no limit.
Jeremiah 29:11 (NIV)
11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
Daniel 9:14 (NIV)
14 The Lord did not hesitate to bring the disaster upon us, for the Lord our God is righteous in everything he does; yet we have not obeyed him.
1 Peter 5:6–7 (NIV)
6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. 7 Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.
Romans 1:20 (NIV)
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
John 1:12–13 (NIV)
12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
John 3:16 (NIV)
16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in HIM shall not perish but have eternal life.
The Master Creator
Genesis 1:1 and the entire creation story reveals God's creativity. He is the Master Creator who delights in diversity and variety.
Creativity is a gift God gives to people by the power of his Holy Spirit. Exodus 31:1-4 described a person who used his artistic skills and craftsmanship to make beautiful things for God's glory.
The Lord also said to Moses, "Look, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, grandson of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. I have filled him with the Spirit of God, giving him great wisdom, intelligence, and skill in all kinds of crafts. He is able to create beautiful objects from gold, silver, and bronze.
Hebrews 11:3 proclaims God as the ultimate source of all creativity.
By faith we understood that the entire universe was formed at God's command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen.
from Living Water for Those Who Thirst Tyndale House Publishers (2000), pp 37-8
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The "great raveled knot," as the famous English psychologist Sir Charles Sherrington called the brain, is about the size of a grapefruit and weighs approximately three pounds. It is composed of some twelve to fourteen billion cells.…
It is the almost limitless number of cells-plus-interconnections that makes the human brain an intellectual instrument of unparalleled supremacy.
JOHN P McNEEL, The Brain of Man
Mr. Smalley:
In reading all these comments, the one you made that "no one believes in unconditional equality" is not so true.
See the Lord Jesus Christ does.
You believe in Him - You spend eternity with Him - Equal for all believers
You do not believe in Him - You do not spend eternity with Him - Equal for all non believer.
Absolute Equality
Proverbs 23:17
Do not let your heart envy sinners, but always
be zealous for the fear of the Lord.
I wonder if all the babies and children that were murdered by Saul on the orders of God made it into heaven with God?
I mean those children really had no choice what to believe in. So they could not decide. So did God send them to hell or heaven if they did not believe in him.
Isn't 7 the age of understanding, so if some of those children were 7 and a half and were never told of the christian God did God have them killed and sent to hell?
Anyone who believes in and worships a christian God must also admit that they worship a God who orders the murder of babies and children and requires human blood sacrifices to be made just to simply say I forgive you.
And I will not accept the excuse of "There are things we cannot understand"
Thats crap because these are simple things to understand, murder and sacrifice.
My God would simply forgive you, the real God would not require someone to be tortured and murdered, so they could see their blood running to make him happy with the world. Its a disgusting story. Im sorry if I offend but its the truth of what you preach.
God would also never ask someone to murder their own son so that he could know that you worship him the most. God is not that sick. Yet christians hold that story with such high regard. If I told you that God told me to kill my son to show my faith, you would have me arrested and stopped. Hypocrites.
Know God... and know what God isn't. The God of the christian Bible is not the real God. Think about how sad God must be that you think these horrible things of God. And believe God capable of such atrocities. Acts you believe in that you would only believe of the worst human beings alive today. That is not what God is.
I wonder if all the babies and children that were murdered by Saul on the orders of God made it into heaven with God? .........
YES - THEY ARE SACTIFIED BY THE AGE OF ACCOUNTABILITY
The age of accountability is a concept that teaches those who die before reaching the age of accountability are automatically saved, by God’s grace and mercy. The age of accountability is a belief that God saves all those who die before reaching the ability to make a decision for or against Christ. Thirteen is the most common number given for the age of accountability, based on the Jewish custom that a child becomes an adult at the age of 13. However, the Bible gives no direct support to the age of 13 always being the age of accountability. It likely varies from child to child. A child has passed the age of accountability once he or she is capable of making a faith decision for or against Christ.
God tested Abraham....Was it God who told Abraham to stop and not kill isaac, YES !!! If you are going to throow that debate out there, you need to finish the story.
God is God and can do all things as He sees fit. Why and how can you limit God, to your own ideas?.....Your finite mind is placing limitations on God. Which is what you cannot attain, comprehend or understand. We have faith that He knows what he is doing.
How can you "know" a god, you do not understand?
How can our finite mind ever complete understand God?
We cannot. Thus, the small word FAITH.
I'll try to address as many of you as I can...
TO THE DISSERTATION WRITER:
Apparently, you've decided to use this site as a platform to showcase chapters of a book in progress. It's a little much to take in or respond to, so I'll ask that we keep things to a manageable discussion, or I'll have to start removing posts. It's a discussion board--not a manuscript review board. If you have that much to offer, send me an email and let's schedule a debate; but please don't bore my readers with miles of text that's the same Christian rhetoric we've all heard a million times. You're still just assuming that the Christian god is real, and the Bible is the truth, so you haven't really offered anything other than excuses and explanations under those presumptions. Proving that a creator was necessary does not link us back to the Genesis account of creation being true. The first cause is not the same as Yahweh.
TRUST IN THE LACK OF COMMENT:
I don't have to trust in your missing evidence. The fact that it's missing is real, so no trust is needed. If you had those facts, you wouldn't need faith.
EQUALITY COMMENT:
Your post actually helped to prove me right. I said "unconditional equality" and then you refuted that by listing conditions for which we could be equal. That's my point! It's not UNCONDITIONAL. You must be a believer in many cases to have equality. Perhaps you should re-read my comments.
COLLEGE PORN COMMENT:
I actually don't agree with it. I understand the point, and appreciate the college allowing the adult students their freedom to protest the Bible, but I think it sends the wrong message. Most people will not read the entire article as I did, they simply see the headline, and that's damaging to the Atheist reputation. I understand their point--but many will miss it. I don't think they thought it through.
LAST POST ON GOD:
Your take is interesting, yet non-Christian. You have valid points against the Christian god, and the Bible, but you have not provided us proof of your own. Who is your god? What's his name? How do you know he exists? How is your proof better or more believable than the Bible?
"You're still just assuming that the Christian god is real "........NOPE, you are assuming He is not real.
You must be a believer in equality too, are you not?
I was once told that a skeptic is a skeptic, which fits you to the tee. You are provided facts, documents, etc, yet do not believe. You choose to believe in your history and lack of evidence of proving there is no god. You "religiously" believe all that "stuff" in trying to prove there is no god, but the evidence prove there is. And what sad, is deep down inside you know it to be true, yet you choose to otherwise.
Why is is you atheist cannot prove there is no god? You believe in other unseen things, yet not god.
BTW, His name.....Yah. Jesus. Alpha and Omega. Was Is and Is To come
"How can you "know" a god, you do not understand?
How can our finite mind ever complete understand God?
We cannot. Thus, the small word FAITH."
The only reason you do not understand God is because you have been taught to believe God is some kind of unknowable creature. Its simply not true. Let go of all those things you have been led to believe and you can know God.
"LAST POST ON GOD:
Your take is interesting, yet non-Christian. You have valid points against the Christian god, and the Bible, but you have not provided us proof of your own. Who is your god? What's his name? How do you know he exists? How is your proof better or more believable than the Bible?"
Proof is found inside of you, through you, you can find it for yourself if you legitimately seek it. It will be unmistakable and you will believe. Its not something "God" requires of you though to save your soul so if you dont want to seek it, you wont find it. God has no name, I just use the word God because that is what people understand. I know God exists because I have been provided with unmistakable proof for myself because I sought it out.
God is not unknowable.
"You're still just assuming that the Christian god is real "........NOPE, you are assuming He is not real.
I have to assume "he" is not real until the evidence shows otherwise. You can't make up your mind that a fact is true and then go backwards trying to prove it--that's called a confirmatory bias, and it isn't science. It's religion.
I do not have the burden to prove a negative. The negative already exists. There is no god. If you say there is, you must prove it exists. You have made the assertion, you must provide the proof.
That's like me telling you that you need to live a certain way because the unicorn in my back yard said so. You ask for proof of my unicorn, and I say "No, you must prove my unicorn doesn't exist!" That's ridiculous.
"Let go of all those things you have been led to believe and you can know God."
Let go of logic, let go of science that we trust for everything else in life, let go of history, let go of the fact of evolution, let go of everything you know, including your reasoning ability, and WHAMO! There's God. Come on. Does anyone have any real evidence other than clever words describing hope, faith, and belief? This is getting old.
"LAST POST ON GOD"
Do you have a name for your religious association?
I have removed several posts from someone that decided to flood the site by copying and pasting articles from "jesustalk.com" and "gotanswers.org." (Great way to show you're thinking for yourself!)
This site is for thinkers and debaters from all religions and non-religious groups--it's not for parrots to spew rhetoric.
Please don't make me moderate comments in the future. I want to leave this as open as I can, but don't ruin it for the rest of us that actually want to have an open dialog. Feel free to link to other sites all you want, but don't copy and paste; think and write for yourself.
"Let go of logic, let go of science that we trust for everything else in life, let go of history, let go of the fact of evolution, let go of everything you know, including your reasoning ability, and WHAMO! There's God. Come on. Does anyone have any real evidence other than clever words describing hope, faith, and belief? This is getting old."
Let go of nothing except for your pre-conceived notions of what you have been told God is. I can see you have been hurt by religion, therefore you lash out at it. Let go of it, let go of what you think others think God is.
God is logic, science, evolution and reason. You are trying to fit God into what they told you all your life it was. You wont find it there. You already know that. But that doesn't mean you can't find it at all because its not in the first place you looked.
Scientists all over the world believe in something called "God". There are scientific experiments going on today that search for and study what is more than just this physical planet. They are very compelling to study.
Yes the christian God negates science and reason, but the real God is all of those things. It doesn't have to be one or the other
To Anonymous March 5
That "the real God is all of those things" is a Spinozan truth far beyond all the doctrines of the current monotheistic hegemony. Spinoza is the sun at noon, imho, but I can't follow him in appropriating 'Deus' via redefinition. Let sleeping gods lie. We who are awake drive back the darkness. In his day, Spinoza had good reason to write in Scholastic Latin and conceal 'Ethica' as long as he lived. We need not, must not compromise or compete by redefinition of the supernaturalists' tainted jargon. (It would make for such a lovely battle, though....) I suggest 'Nature' in the grand sense that you imply as a more appropriate ultimate ontological term, should you ever find yourself in need of one. Spinoza's god is a thinking being only as the actual thinking of beings who enjoy that attribute; god does not have a separate individual self that thinks god-alone thoughts. That, of course, was enough to clinch his Atheism for his first readers, and for us. Your suggestion is intelligent, but you must realize that the American Atheists would have to change their name to 'Americans for the Real God' (ARG!), which would surely bring about the End Times and Armageddon.
Let go of nothing except for your pre-conceived notions of what you have been told God is. I can see you have been hurt by religion, therefore you lash out at it. Let go of it, let go of what you think others think God is.
God is logic, science, evolution and reason.
You have yet to prove his existence though why are you so persistent on believing something that obviously isn't here.
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