The breakdown of Christianity for me, starts with the Bible. I think people spend a lot of time trying to prove teleological, cosmological, and other 'illogical' arguments in the case for "Christ." But those arguments do not point directly toward Christianity being true.
The reason we even talk about "God" in the Christian sense at all, is because of the Bible.
Without the Bible, you wouldn't know the name Jesus. You wouldn't know the Ten Commandments. You wouldn't go to church. And some think you wouldn't have morals! So why do you trust it as such a strong reference point?
The Bible was 'canonized' around 325 C.E. (about 275+ years after Jesus' death) with Constantine in charge. It was not "written by God." It was written by 40 different men that said they were inspired by "God" over a period of 1600 years, in 3 different languages! Also, no person that wrote the books of the Bible ever actually walked with, or met Jesus (except in visions or hallucinations). It was all passed down through word-of-mouth hope and faith.
At the time Constantine was overseeing the canonization or 'building' of the Bible, if he didn't agree with the text, it was thrown out. There are tons of 'scriptures' that did not make it in. A quick research on the Council of Nicaea will prove this.
So why do you believe the Bible? Why do you trust that what those men wrote down was actually inspired by "God?" I need more answers than just "faith" or "because they said they were," because so did David Koresh, Charles Manson, and Jim Jones, and Mohammad from Islam who wrote the Qu'ran, and you don't believe any of them.
So why do you believe the Bible? Why do you think it is actually the holy word of the Christian god? Why do you disbelieve the Qu'ran, and the Holy Vedas? They claim to have the same level of metaphysical inspiration.
155 comments:
The bible is nothing more than a history book. Thats how I view it.
@anonymous
It's not even a history book. Historical record points to the fact that a historical Jesus did not even exist. The main backer of the Jesus' story was Flavius Josephus, who was born after Jesus' supposed life. Jesus' supposed life was from 5bc-30ad, Josephus wasn't even born until 37ad. He was no first hand witness to anything he wrote about.
Excellent point, Cesar.
Frank R. Zindler wrote a book called "The Jesus the Jews Never Knew," precisely about that problem with Christ. It's a very scholarly-level read, and available at atheists.org from American Atheist Press.
History books contain facts, many of which are traceable or at least duplicatable. The Bible is comprised of word-of-mouth accounts and stories that were passed down through generations (some authors known, some unknown). I really don't think most Christians know that. Most actually believe "God wrote it" somehow, and they don't give it much thought after that.
This post is designed to remove them from that comfort zone and really make them think about why they trust this ancient text to tell them so much about their lives.
Why do you believe in all the history that you do?......Why do you choose to believe in your idea of there not being a god?..... Why do you believe in Constantine?.........Why do you believe in all the facts you have given about the bible being canonizwd after 325?....
Main Entry: 1faith
Pronunciation: \ˈfāth\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural faiths \ˈfāths, sometimes ˈfāthz\
Etymology: Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust — more at bide
Date: 13th century
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
synonyms see belief
— on faith : without question
I know you do not care for long posting, but this is something I agree with and hope you find inspiring.
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Our answer to this question will not only determine how we view the Bible and its importance to our lives, but also it will ultimately have an eternal impact on us. If the Bible is truly God’s Word, then we should cherish it, study it, obey it, and fully trust it. If the Bible is the Word of God, then to dismiss it is to dismiss God Himself.
The fact that God gave us the Bible is an evidence and illustration of His love for us. The term “revelation” simply means that God communicated to mankind what He is like and how we can have a right relationship with Him. These are things that we could not have known had God not divinely revealed them to us in the Bible. Although God’s revelation of Himself in the Bible was given progressively over approximately 1500 years, it has always contained everything man needs to know about God in order to have a right relationship with Him. If the Bible is truly the Word of God, then it is the final authority for all matters of faith, religious practice, and morals.
The question we must ask ourselves is how can we know that the Bible is the Word of God and not just a good book? What is unique about the Bible that sets it apart from all other religious books ever written? Is there any evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word? These types of questions must be seriously examined if we are to determine the validity of the Bible’s claim to be the very Word of God, divinely inspired, and totally sufficient for all matters of faith and practice. There can be no doubt that the Bible does claim to be the very Word of God. This is clearly seen in Paul’s commendation to Timothy: “… from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:15-17).
There are both internal and external evidences that the Bible is truly God’s Word. The internal evidences are those things within the Bible that testify of its divine origin. One of the first internal evidences that the Bible is truly God’s Word is seen in its unity. Even though it is really sixty-six individual books, written on three continents, in three different languages, over a period of approximately 1500 years, by more than 40 authors who came from many walks of life, the Bible remains one unified book from beginning to end without contradiction. This unity is unique from all other books and is evidence of the divine origin of the words which God moved men to record.
Another of the internal evidences that indicates the Bible is truly God’s Word is the prophecies contained within its pages. The Bible contains hundreds of detailed prophecies relating to the future of individual nations including Israel, certain cities, and mankind. Other prophecies concern the coming of One who would be the Messiah, the Savior of all who would believe in Him. Unlike the prophecies found in other religious books or those by men such as Nostradamus, biblical prophecies are extremely detailed. There are over three hundred prophecies concerning Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. Not only was it foretold where He would be born and His lineage, but also how He would die and that He would rise again. There simply is no logical way to explain the fulfilled prophecies in the Bible other than by divine origin. There is no other religious book with the extent or type of predictive prophecy that the Bible contains.
A third internal evidence of the divine origin of the Bible is its unique authority and power. While this evidence is more subjective than the first two, it is no less a powerful testimony of the divine origin of the Bible. The Bible’s authority is unlike any other book ever written. This authority and power are best seen in the way countless lives have been transformed by the supernatural power of God’s Word. Drug addicts have been cured by it, homosexuals set free by it, derelicts and deadbeats transformed by it, hardened criminals reformed by it, sinners rebuked by it, and hate turned to love by it. The Bible does possess a dynamic and transforming power that is only possible because it is truly God’s Word.
There are also external evidences that indicate the Bible is truly the Word of God. One is the historicity of the Bible. Because the Bible details historical events, its truthfulness and accuracy are subject to verification like any other historical document. Through both archaeological evidences and other writings, the historical accounts of the Bible have been proven time and time again to be accurate and true. In fact, all the archaeological and manuscript evidence supporting the Bible makes it the best-documented book from the ancient world. The fact that the Bible accurately and truthfully records historically verifiable events is a great indication of its truthfulness when dealing with religious subjects and doctrines and helps substantiate its claim to be the very Word of God.
Another external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the integrity of its human authors. As mentioned earlier, God used men from many walks of life to record His words. In studying the lives of these men, we find them to be honest and sincere. The fact that they were willing to die often excruciating deaths for what they believed testifies that these ordinary yet honest men truly believed God had spoken to them. The men who wrote the New Testament and many hundreds of other believers (1 Corinthians 15:6) knew the truth of their message because they had seen and spent time with Jesus Christ after He had risen from the dead. Seeing the risen Christ had a tremendous impact on them. They went from hiding in fear to being willing to die for the message God had revealed to them. Their lives and deaths testify to the fact that the Bible truly is God’s Word.
A final external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the indestructibility of the Bible. Because of its importance and its claim to be the very Word of God, the Bible has suffered more vicious attacks and attempts to destroy it than any other book in history. From early Roman Emperors like Diocletian, through communist dictators and on to modern-day atheists and agnostics, the Bible has withstood and outlasted all of its attackers and is still today the most widely published book in the world.
Throughout time, skeptics have regarded the Bible as mythological, but archeology has confirmed it as historical. Opponents have attacked its teaching as primitive and outdated, but its moral and legal concepts and teachings have had a positive influence on societies and cultures throughout the world. It continues to be attacked by pseudo-science, psychology, and political movements, yet it remains just as true and relevant today as it was when it was first written. It is a book that has transformed countless lives and cultures throughout the last 2000 years. No matter how its opponents try to attack, destroy, or discredit it, the Bible remains; its veracity and impact on lives is unmistakable. The accuracy which has been preserved despite every attempt to corrupt, attack, or destroy it is clear testimony to the fact that the Bible is truly God’s Word and is supernaturally protected by Him. It should not surprise us that, no matter how the Bible is attacked, it always comes out unchanged and unscathed. After all, Jesus said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away” (Mark 13:31). After looking at the evidence, one can say without a doubt that, yes, the Bible is truly God’s Word.
I would sincerely ask that you spend some time looking up the scriptures I have quoted, ask God to open your mind, your heart and ask Him to just sit with you and talk with you though the scriptures. If you really want to know about the Bible and if God realy IS, then ask Him.
You have to test the scriptues with anyone belief or opinion. He will speak to you if you are willing.
it is the "willing" word that is hard to do sometimes, even for us Christians. We are not perfect and I surely do not claim to have all the answers, but that is where FAITH comes into play.
My finite mind is just that. So limited. I certainly cannot comprehend why He is and how He works, but I trust that HE does and His ways are best.
And the best way I know how to get answers from God, is to pray, ask Him and seek His instructions and wisdom in the Bible.
It is kind of like oxygen....You cannot see it, feel or hear it...But you know it is there. You yourself have faith in the air we breathe, yet cannot see it.
FACT - Proven from the Bible.
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The biblical passages regarding the flood make it clear that it was global. Genesis 7:11 states that “all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.” Genesis 1:6-7 and 2:6 tell us that the pre-flood environment was much different from that which we experience today. Based on these and other biblical descriptions, it is reasonably speculated that at one time the earth was covered by some kind of water canopy. This canopy could have been a vapor canopy, or it might have consisted of rings, somewhat like Saturn's ice rings. This, in combination with a layer of water underground, released upon the land (Genesis 2:6) would have resulted in a global flood.
The clearest verses that show the extent of the flood are Genesis 7:19-23. Regarding the waters, “They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet. Every living thing that moved on the earth perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.”
In the above passage, we not only find the word “all” being used repeatedly, but we also find “all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered,” “the waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet,“ and “every living thing that moved on the earth perished.” These descriptions clearly describe a universal flood covering the whole earth. Also, if the flood was localized, why did God instruct Noah to build an ark instead of merely telling Noah to move and causing the animals to migrate? And why did He instruct Noah to build an ark large enough to house all of the different kinds of land animals found on the earth? If the flood was not global, there would have been no need for an ark.
Peter also describes the universality of the flood in 2 Peter 3:6-7, where he states, “By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.” In these verses Peter compares the “universal” coming judgment to the flood of Noah's time and states that the world that existed then was flooded with water. Further, many biblical writers accepted the historicity of the worldwide flood (Isaiah 54:9; 1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 2:5; Hebrews 11:7). Lastly, the Lord Jesus Christ believed in the universal flood and took it as the type of the coming destruction of the world when He returns (Matthew 24:37-39; Luke 17:26-27).
There are many extra-biblical evidences that point to a worldwide catastrophe such as a global flood. There are vast fossil graveyards found on every continent and large amounts of coal deposits that would require the rapid covering of vast quantities of vegetation. Oceanic fossils are found upon mountain tops around the world. Cultures in all parts of the world have some form of flood legend. All of these facts and many others are evidence of a global flood.
The bible is the INSPIRED word of God. Christians know it was not physcially written by God.
Smalley is going to rip this apart...
There are so many contradictions in the super long anonymous post above that it is not even worth it to debate. It debates itself.
"And the best way I know how to get answers from God, is to pray, ask Him and seek His instructions and wisdom in the Bible."
Why not simply ask God and get answers from God directly instead of from the completely fallible bible, God needs no middleman. God will answer you if you are "willing" to hear. If you are "willing" to listen even if the answers contradict your bible.
Why not simply ask God and get answers from God directly instead of from the completely fallible bible...........
His answers will not and cannot contradict His own inspired word. He is faithful to Himself and cannot contradict what He inspired to be written.
Why do you read books or instruction manuals? To learn from the wiser, to read the stories, to read how it really works.
But perhaps you need not any books, because you are wise in your own opinions and theories.
Perhaps you never had to read a math book, or not even your own science book. Just imagine if no one read books, we would all be so incredibly intelligent, seeking our own ways and doing things the way we want and see best.
So the next time you need assistance with something, or putting something together, perhaps the instruction manual is of no use because you already know how to do it all.
God works through His word, the infallible Bible, He works through people.
Ye of little faith have no peace.
Keep it simple said...
Smalley is going to rip this apart...
Actually Smalley cannot rip it apart. He cannot even rip his own beliefs apart. His, as well as, all atheist's theories are constantly changing and always unsettled.
To be honest, in light of preparation for my live debate this weekend, preparing for another set of radio interviews next week, and completing a final 9-page essay for psychoanalytic therapy, I haven't had time to review the copy and pasted parroting-palooza up there. But indeed, the ripping will begin soon enough, as Keep It Simple promised.
I'm not sure what you mean by not being able to rip my own beliefs apart. I don't have many beliefs to even address. I have scientific facts that are tangible and research-able, and you have hope and faith that your life isn't a waste.
You're correct in saying that atheists views are constantly changing. That's the called evolution of knowledge. We don't cap ourselves with mythology and call it day, making excuses at every corner because we can't face the fallacies of previous statements.
You see, we can actually go back and TEST early scientific results and RETEST and RETEST, to either confirm their validity, or deny their results in light of new evidence. Your class of thinkers has chosen ignorance; you don't want to learn any more. Your Bible is all you need. And rhetoric is what you spew. For you, it's the same script every time, with the presumption that the Bible is accurate, instead of investigating it objectively.
I will address those thoughts of other people that you brought to my site soon enough. But I do wonder what YOU think as well, instead of what you can copy and paste from people that HAVE researched your beliefs.
I'm beginning to wonder if you have a keyboard at all; perhaps your mouse is all that's working.
Then explain the prophecy of the flood, to the evidence in the bible and the physical facts and evidence given to us today.
The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians” (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).
Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.”
Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).
Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast and Lord’s Supper.
The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.
Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.
"His answers will not and cannot contradict His own inspired word. He is faithful to Himself and cannot contradict what He inspired to be written.
Ye of little faith have no peace."
"He" can contradict anything he wants he is God afterall right? But this sentence shows me that you personally do not have a relationship with God. You only know what you read and hope it is right. If it helps you to get through the day to believe that your book is God talking to you then I'm glad you have that comfort. I am sad though that you miss out on a true God experience and connection. It would bring you more peace and understanding than you have ever known if you could find that real connection.
Books can only take you so far, you must do it, experience it, feel it to truly know what you are talking about. To truly know if its real.
Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’ laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of material goods.
Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.
Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.
In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).
There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.
There can be no doubt that the Bible does claim to be the very Word of God. This is clearly seen in Paul’s commendation to Timothy: “… from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work”
Smalley....Be slow to anger and just read my friend. Or shall it be to much to debate the real Truth in Jesus Christ?
It is a simple as the itty bitty word - FAITH !
Blessed are those who have faith, but have not seen. Revelations !!
The proof that Jesus lived is out there outside of the bible.
I believe jesus was a living breathing human being that has been written about in history by many. The perception of what Jesus was is different though depending on the writer.
I do not believe that Jesus is god. The story of Jesus is a great one though, a man who gave himself up to appease a horribly feared God, a God who would require the torture and murder of a loved man so that he would not torture and murder the rest of us. I believe Jesus and the population at the time believed these things of their God so they did what they felt they had to do to appease this vicious God that they beleived in. Its sad really
"Blessed are those who have faith, but have not seen. Revelations !!"
Blinded are those that have faith but refuse to see.
Colossians 1:15 (New International Version)
The Supremacy of Christ
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
John 17
Jesus Prays for Himself
1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Jesus Prays for His Disciples
6"I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. 13"I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify[b] them by the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
Jesus Prays for All Believers
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
Jesus Concludes His Time Alone with His Disciples by Praying to His Father
This chapter contains the most extensive and profound prayer of Jesus we have. When Jesus prayed at Lazarus's tomb he made it clear that he had no need of expressing prayer because he is one with God in his whole life, the union true prayer expresses
Nevertheless,
He prayed for the benefit of those present (11:41-42), and the same is true here as well (17:13). Jesus' whole life has been a revelation of the Father, based on Jesus' union with him, so it is appropriate that his teaching concludes in the form of prayer, the genre most closely associated with union with God. Other farewell discourses also conclude with prayers (for example, 4 Ezra 8:19b-36; Beasley-Murray 1987:293), but in Jesus' case prayer is itself related to the essence of his message.
As Jesus turns to address the Father his speech implies that he is taken up into the eternal presence (cf. Brown 1970:747). He speaks as if his work were already complete (for example, v. 4). Indeed, he even says, "I am no longer in this world" (v. 11, completely obscured in the NIV). But right after that he says, I say these things while I am still in the world (v. 13). He is right there with his disciples just before his death, but he is praying from the realm of eternity. Just as the book of Revelation reveals from a heavenly perspective the certainty of God's unfolding will, so this prayer of Jesus shows that he is completely confident in the outworking of that will.
Jesus' intercession for his disciples from within God's presence anticipates his role after his ascension (cf. 1 Jn 2:1). Because this intercession corresponds to the role of the high priest elsewhere in the New Testament (Rom 8:34; Heb 7:25-26) and because Jesus uses sacrificial language when he refers to sanctifying himself (17:19), this prayer has been known as the High Priestly Prayer. In the fifth century Cyril of Alexandria saw these two activities as fitting for the one who is "our great and all-holy High Priest" (In John 11.8).
In his prayer Jesus will speak of the past and the future from an eternal perspective, but it is all grounded in the present, at this particular climactic point in salvation history: Father, the time ["hour," hora] has come (v. 1). This hour has cast its shadow over the whole story (2:4; 7:6, 8, 30; 8:20), and its arrival has already been signaled (12:23), with its implications for glory (12:27-28), judgment (12:31-32) and Jesus' return to the Father (13:1). Jesus now addresses the theme of glory, asking the Father to glorify the Son so that the Son may glorify the Father (v. 1). Thus, even in asking on behalf of himself his ultimate goal and delight is the Father. In general, to glorify someone means to hold him or her up for honor and praise. So on one level the Son is asking that his own honor be revealed, namely, that he is one with God; Jesus in turn will glorify the Father as he continues to reveal him as one worthy of all praise and worship. In John, however, glorification also has a more specific meaning: the death of the Son of God. Throughout the Gospel, Jesus has revealed the Father's glory by manifesting his characteristic gracious love. In the death of the Son this same love is revealed most profoundly, for God is love, and love is the laying down of one's life (cf. 1 Jn 4:8, 16; 3:16). Thus, in his death Jesus will reveal his own character and his Father's character to be gracious love.
Having prayed for the glorification of the cross and its provision of life (vv. 1-2) and having mentioned the glorification evident in his ministry (v. 4), Jesus concludes with yet another aspect of the glory: And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began (v. 5). Here language used of Wisdom (Prov 8:23; Wisdom of Solomon 7:25; Brown 1970:754) is taken up by the incarnate one, who is about to die. Glory now seems to refer to the shining splendor of the divine presence, the "unapproachable light" that Paul mentions (1 Tim 6:16). Nevertheless, it still retains the element of love. For the Son is asking that, through the glorification of the cross, resurrection and ascension, he may return to where he was before, beside (para; NIV, with) the Father (cf. vv. 2, 24; 1:18, H. C. G. Moule 1908:40-42). The ineffable mystery of the loving unity of the Godhead is here revealed to us once again.Jesus Begins His Prayer for the Eleven Disciples by Describing Their Situation (17:6-11) The opening verses have focused on the glory of the Father and the Son, but they have also included the disciples, and to them Jesus now turns more directly. He comments on his work among them, their response and the relation they now have with the Father and the Son in contrast to the world's.
But more is involved than just the revelation of God, for the goal of keeping them in the Father's name is that they may be one as we are one (v. 11). This oneness, as will be made clear soon (vv. 21-23), is not merely a unity of thought among those who receive the teaching of Jesus. It is a matter of shared life. So name here refers not just to the revelation, but to the reality that has been revealed--the Father himself. The name is the point of contact between Christ and his disciples in the Father. "God's Name is His revelation of Himself" (Lloyd 1936: 230). When he says (again speak-ing from an eternal perspective) while I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me (v. 12), he is referring to the protection they had by his own divine presence among them as the I AM. Jesus is asking God to continue to protect them by his powerful presence, a presence that will be mediated by himself and the Spirit, as he has taught in the farewell discourse (13:31--17:26).
The purpose of Jesus' making God's name known to them is not that they would have information about God, but that they would have intimacy in order that the love you have (egapesas, another aorist) for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them (v. 26). In his ministry he revealed the Father's love for them (v. 23), and in the future he will continue to help his disciples actually receive this love within each of them and amongst them as a community. But again, he himself is the point of contact. It is precisely by his being in them that they will receive the love of the Father, for it is the Father's love for the Son that they are enabled to share. The Son's coming to earth brought the presence of God's love, and his coming into the lives of believers also brings that love, for God is love. Our relationship with the Father will always be mediated through the Son, even in eternity. Meditation on such truths begins to give us a faint glimpse of the Father's glorifying the Son and the Son's glorifying the Father (v. 1). It also helps us understand why, in this final section of the prayer, Jesus addresses his Father as righteous (v. 25). All that Jesus has done and all that he will continue to do are in response to God's righteous will. He is righteous because he is truth itself and does only what is right. His purposes are perfect, reflecting his own characteristic life and light and love.
About this commentary
And if you are a parent, make sure you show your love and don't discipline your children and let them do what ever they want. What kind of parents would you be if you did not discipline your children when they did wrong !!!
Awh - Your arguement of sacrificing God's own Son........Who else would have attoned for our wrong doings....YOU, ME, your own children.....PURE GRACE.
But as God loves, He also disciplines, corrects and teaches.
Isaiah 12:2
Behold, God is my salvation, I will trust and not be afraid; ‘ For YAH, the LORD, is my strength and song; He also has become my salvation.’”
Isaiah 26:4
Trust in the LORD forever, For in YAH, the LORD, is everlasting strength.
As Paul sat in prison, He spoke to the crowd and said
2 Timothy 2:11-13 (New King James Version)
11 This is a faithful saying:
For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.
First, scripture is never going to convince anyone who believes scripture is altered, fake, made up and not the word of God. So posting scripture over and over is convincing no one. For people who have actually studied where the bible comes from and how over the years it was ripped apart, altered, translated badly and used to misguide and control a population will never be a tool of persuation for you. Next.
"And if you are a parent, make sure you show your love and don't discipline your children and let them do what ever they want. What kind of parents would you be if you did not discipline your children when they did wrong !!!"
Hmmm... would you pierce your child's hands and feet with spikes and hang them upon wood to bleed to death as punishment for his brothers sins? Maybe he stole a pack of gum, or said a curse word? Is this just? We as Americans do not even do this to our worst of criminals. The real and true just God would never ask of you or do such a horrific thing and pretend it was mercy for you. Its sickening to me that people find this a great story and beleive this evil behavior exists in God and try to explain it away as good.
"Awh - Your arguement of sacrificing God's own Son........Who else would have attoned for our wrong doings....YOU, ME, your own children.....PURE GRACE."
God did not require someone to atone for your wrongdoings, that is a story made up in your bible that you fall for hook line and sinker. The catholic church I am sure is proud of that accomplishment. God did not require a human blood sacrifice just to be able to say I forgive you. God is so much greater than that kind of petty, gross and disturbing need of a bloody body to make himself feel better about the human race. I'm sure you believe as your bible teaches that we are all Gods children, so Jesus's blood is no different to God than yours. God didnt need it, the people did. It is their creation, it is their story, they just put it on God to justify their cruelty.
Hmmm... would you pierce your child's hands and feet with spikes and hang them upon wood to bleed to death as punishment for his brothers sins?
God did not do it....MAN did !! And your denial of Him is just as bad.
You have so little faith in truth, yet believe everything else you read that is against the BIBLE.....Perhaps all the other things you read or lies.
Better me trusting in the God you say does not exist then you not trusting in the God I know exist.
BTW - Exactly what evidence do you have that GOD does not exists?
"God did not do it....MAN did !! And your denial of Him is just as bad."
According to the bible that you believe in, God required the torture and murder of Jesus in order for him not to torture and murder you, to let you live he had to die horribly and that is Gods wishes fulfilled by man! Man acted on Gods wishes not their own.
Read your bible! This is what you beleive in! If you beleive your bible then you have to believe in these monstrous ideas in the bible. You cant pick and choose what you like and pretend the rest isnt real.
I do not deny God, I deny the evil, vindictive, murderous creature that your bible says God is.
God exists.
The God of the bible does not exist.
God exists.
The God of the bible does not exist.
John 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
It was GODS WILL that Jesus be tortured and murdered, Man was just following the will of God. Put the blame where it lies, with your God.
It was GODS WILL that Jesus be tortured and murdered, Man was just following the will of God. Put the blame where it lies, with your God.
--------> How do you know that? You don't believe in God.
I do not deny God, I deny the evil, vindictive, murderous creature that your bible says God is.
-----> Do you deny Jesus Christ?
"--------> How do you know that? You don't believe in God."
I do believe in God, just not the Christian God. It is christians who believe it was Gods will that Jesus be murdered so that you could be saved. What would God have done to you, if Jesus did not give him the blood sacrifice he required? And those words are in your bible, if you believe your bible is Gods word, then you have to believe it was Gods will to have a sacrificial human be given to him to save you. Denying it is denying Gods word.
"-----> Do you deny Jesus Christ?"
I'm not sure what you mean, but I believe Jesus existed, I do not believe Jesus is God or Gods son, or the sacrificial lamb who died to save us all from Gods destructive hands.
You do not know who or what you really believe in. There is only one true God, and that is the God of the Bible.
2 Timothy 2:11-13 (New King James Version)
11 This is a faithful saying:
For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.
Do you believe in Satan?
Well scripture itself will not convince me. I have read the King James version cover to cover and that is partly why I no longer believe in it. If I were you, as someone who actually believes scripture is the word of God, I would shy away from the King James version and read the Holy Bible from the Ancient Eastern Text, from the Aramaic of the Peshitta. It is translated from the actual language of Jesus and makes much more sense than those translated from greek or hebrew. If you want a more accurate translation of the bible anyway. Just a suggestion.
And no I do not believe in Satan, or Hell for that matter.
"You do not know who or what you really believe in. There is only one true God, and that is the God of the Bible."
There is only one true God yes, but it is not the God of the bible. I am closer to God now in my life than I ever was when I was a christian. I have such a peace and understanding of life and its purpose now that I am not being fooled by christianity.
Then what god is it?
Using David Smalley's theory that the Christian god could not exist and allow the tragedy in Haiit to occur, where was the god you believe in? Why did your god not stop all the evil, the tragedies, the murders, etc?........
Being that your god does not condone evil, why did he/she/it allow evil?
The Christian God accepts all responsibility for everything that occurs.
Isaiah 52
10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes [g] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life [h] and be satisfied [i] ;
by his knowledge [j] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [k]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [l]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
Got a question....earlier you stated " would shy away from the King James version and read the Holy Bible from the Ancient Eastern Text, from the Aramaic of the Peshitta"........ It is translated from the actual language of Jesus and makes much more sense than those translated from greek or hebrew
Why the importance of reading from the actual language of Jesus when you do not believe in who He says He was,Is and Is to come?
Denese
"Using David Smalley's theory that the Christian god could not exist and allow the tragedy in Haiit to occur, where was the god you believe in? Why did your god not stop all the evil, the tragedies, the murders, etc?........"
Being that your god does not condone evil, why did he/she/it allow evil?"
I dont believe I ever made that statement, I did say God wouldn't be so sadistic as to play with people the way christians beleive. I don't believe that God interfers with our lives in that way. If you understand that your purpose here is to learn, then suffering, pain and loss are a part of that learning, just as relief, joy and happiness are a part of it. God did not make an earthquake happen, nor would God stop one. It is a natural disaster that we as humans have to live through and learn from. Praying is not going to cure cancer, God is not going to reach down and pull out a tumor, it is a learning experience for that person and those close. You will learn well or learn poorly, you may have to keep learning until you get it right. If you have that real connection to God you can understand this and learn easier without so much struggle and doubt. What have you ever learned when everything was perfect in your life. That is why no one has a perfect life, it would defeat your purpose. When you have learned all that you came here to learn you will return to God, where you came from.
"The Christian God accepts all responsibility for everything that occurs."
I think Christians would disagree and blame all the bad stuff on satan or man.
"Why the importance of reading from the actual language of Jesus when you do not believe in who He says He was,Is and Is to come?"
I don't, but it is important to that person who does believe in the scriptures. I don't begrudge someone what brings them comfort in this life. It was a suggestion for that person who lives their life through the scripture and quotes it.
Christians and Athiests are the same in the devoutness of what they believe. You both are unmovable. You both harbor small doubts that you keep hidden so as to appear strong in what want to be true. You both feel the need to reach out and preach what you believe is true, because when others believe, it will validate you and make you feel more secure.
For both of you it would require God to appear before you and tell you whats real to change your minds. You are the same in this way.
What you both miss, is that God experience is possible if you were not so chained to what you want to be true. A christian would have to open themselves up to what if I am wrong? As would an athiest. Very difficult thing to do. Life changing thing to do. You may not be on that kind of spiritual path and thats ok because God is not going to punish anyone who couldn't find that in this life. You are not put here on this earth with absolutely no information, thousands of different opinions thrown at you and expected to know what is truth. If you are on that kind of path you will find it, but a release of the old and an acceptance and openness to what you might find is necessary to find God and what God really truly is.
God is not going to punish anyone who couldn't find that in this life.
.........I will have to disagree strongly with this statement. If you do not find your path to Jesus Christ and accept Him and his deity as Elohim, then you will sufferring eternal damnation in hell.
"I think Christians would disagree and blame all the bad stuff on satan or man."....
...........A true Christian cannot disagree that God accepts responsibility for everything in His creation. Why? Because a true believer accepts the Bible as the in fallible, inerrant word of God. If a Christian waivers and disagree, I personally would take out the Bible and show that person.
I personally do not harbor any small doubts hidden in my heart. Doubt and Faith contradict each other. What I cannot comprehend in God, I have faith in His wisdom being perfect and holy. Doubt separates that with which you have faith and trust. God commands His followers not to doubt or fear.
The issue on the cancer analogy,,,There are thousands upon thousands of medical miracles that are unexplained, and thousands of doctors would share their own testimony that it could only have been God who cured.
Does God allow evil or bad things, yes.
Using your own theories of sadistic behavior, why does your god allow evil to happen? Why doesn't he stop it?
"I don't believe that God interfers with our lives in that way. If you understand that your purpose here is to learn, then suffering, pain and loss are a part of that learning,"
......This is a very contradictory statement. If your god only allows the good in your life, why are you sufferring? And if your god does not interfere with your suffering and learning, how do you learn at all?,,,,,,,,See God created the desire to learn. My God allows sufferring and pain, of which most of the time we bring on ourself.
1. There is no hell, so I have nothing to fear.
2. Most christians are not true christians, they take the good and pretend the bad stuff is not in their bible. They live more peacefully that way. Its ok and actually better for the world that they dont fully beleive.
3. I'll take back that cancer analogy, kind of, I dont beleive God cured anybody, but I do beleive in drawing on God and the power of human intention to influence the physical body and even matter.
4. You are putting your idea of God on my statements thats why you cant wrap your head around it. God is not an all powerful overseer of the world bending it to his will. God does not allow or deny anything, good or bad. God does not interfere or require anything of you. God does not test you, or teach you. It is up to you what and how you learn. That is the pure definition of free will. To make choices and deal with the outcomes, good or bad. Free will is not, do it my way or I'll burn you forever. That is not a choice. That is not what God is.
Most christians are not true christians, they take the good and pretend the bad stuff is not in their bible.........
......Ok, I see that in people too. But we are not to judge that person's heart. We all have our faults and wrongdoings. God knows your heart and mine. It is for Him to judge.
but I do beleive in drawing on God"....Why, if you do not nelieve that God can or will heal, what is your purpose on drawing on Him? You are drawing on god for what? ...without god, humans cannot perform thier intentions, because it was God would gave us the inner desire to have an "intention"....God created the desire. So, why are you drawing on god, when you have no faith that He will perform and you have the ability to do it on your own?
God does not bend. God is. His will is. It is my free will to conform to His will.
"God does not interfere or require anything of you. God does not test you, or teach you. It is up to you what and how you learn. That is the pure definition of free will. To make choices and deal with the outcomes, good or bad. Free will is not, do it my way or I'll burn you forever. That is not a choice. That is not what God is"............THEN BACK TO YOUR STATEMENT.....WHY DO YOU DRAW ON GOD?
Free Will - God of the Bible allows us to chose His ways or not chose His ways.
If God does not teach, why do you draw on Him?
The ripping ensues:
Ok - things have gotten way out of hand here, and they did so in a hurry. But I want to respond to the very long copy-and-paste-a-poolza above, regarding the proof of the Bible.
Anonymous, you (or the person you plagiarized) actually quoted the Bible and Paul's writings, to prove that the Bible and Paul's writings are the inspired word of the Christian god! Seriously think about that circular reasoning. Then, you actually had the nerve to call this proof 'internal and external sources.'
If that is really all you need for proof, then why aren't you Mormon? Joseph Smith said he saw an angel in the woods that ordained him, and then he wrote the book of Mormon, as "Another Testament of Jesus Christ." Why don't you believe that? It's in a book, and was inspired by the same god, and 11 people certified this as true.
Mohamed said that Allah spoke directly to him, and that the Qur'an is the inspired word of the All Mighty Creator and Most High God. Why don't you believe that?
Why does the Bible get special treatment in your eyes? Have you ever researched the counter arguments for the 'prophecies' in the Bible? Many of them did not come true at all.
Snakes were supposed to be cursed to eat dust for eternity. They don't. Adam was supposed to die the day he ate the forbidden fruit. He didn't.
Lands were promised to the Jews 'forever' that no longer belong to them. There are hundreds of these, including ones surrounding Jesus, that I will get into further in my debate this weekend. Because my opponent reads my blog on a daily basis, I will not post them here, but if you want to learn something about your doctrine, I'd love to see you there.
(Although I'd fully expect you to show up in a mask with a stranger's name tag on your shirt, carrying signs of what other people would say.)
I've also noticed that you hardly seem to address the questions posed to you. So I am directly asking you to please address the questions I've asked you above, in your own words. If you just come back with more copy and pasting, I will have to remove those posts. It's a discussion board, not a parrot board.
Please realize, that often times, people will just 'scan' over your words, because it's just too much content to take in all at once or respond to. Things become lost when you do it that way, and good points that you make are over-looked--and it's no longer about a discussion. It's the blogging equivalent to yelling. People just stop listening (or reading) when you present too much at once, especially when it's self-evidential plagiarism.
It's not that I don't care for 'long' posts, it's that I prefer original, thoughtful, objective posts examining the evidence. Again, if you have external information to offer, please do so in the form of links so that the author can get credit for their material, and the reader can decide to follow that link, rather than being forced to sift through rhetoric to find a thoughtful discussion.
If that is really all you need for proof, then why aren't you Mormon? Joseph Smith...
........Joseph Smith is a false prophet who denies the deity of Jesus Christ being Elohim, one with God, the same, which is blasphemy.
----Cross reference this to the lies the Mormon church teachs...Trust me, I am the blonde-bible believing Baptist who studies alot of books, but the BIBLE prevails.
----Mormons believe the following about God: He has not always been the Supreme Being of the universe, but attained that status through righteous living and persistent effort. They believe God the Father has a “body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s.” Though abandoned by modern Mormon leaders, Brigham Young taught that Adam actually was God and the father of Jesus Christ. In contrast, Christians know this about God: there is only one true God (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6-8), He always has existed and always will exist (Deuteronomy 33:27; Psalm 90:2; 1 Timothy 1:17), and He was not created but is the Creator (Genesis 1; Psalm 24:1; Isaiah 37:16). He is perfect, and no one else is equal to Him (Psalm 86:8; Isaiah 40:25). God the Father is not a man, nor was He ever (Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Hosea 11:9). He is Spirit (John 4:24), and Spirit is not made of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39).
The Mormons also teach that God had sex with Mary; thus, Jesus. WHAT &&R&*(#@*$......HUH.
Mormons do not believe in PURE GRACE. They believe in doing all they can first, the depending upon grace. Which that in itself defies the definition of grace, does it not? Wow, I am blonde and even I know the meaning of grace.....When you place any conditions or requirements upon grace, grace is no longer grace. It is a reward for a duty.
Although Mormons are usually friendly, loving, and kind people, they are deceived by a false religion that distorts the nature of God, the Person of Jesus Christ, and the means of salvation.
And, yes I am willing to start that debate too.
That is your problem...I gave looks of references to help prove My God, the Bible and so on....But those who read become lazy and blame others for their laziness. I give you evidence of the flood, prophicied in the Bible then came true with resulting evidence.
As I have asked before, show me your EVIDENCE that God does not exist and I will show you mine and God will prevail. There is my challenge. I can pull physical evidence from the Bible and this world to prove God exist.
Ready, set, go.....See ya in Seagoville !! I won't have to wear a name tag, you will know me when you see me.
BTW - My name is Denese - Ask Dr. Creamer if he knows me...He does.
Christians alone believe that Jesus is God's Son. Rest assured, the Bible (which the Qur’an commends in Surah 4:136) does not teach a parental relationship between God and Mary.
Being from God, Jesus is called God's Son. Jesus is one with His Father in deity yet distinct in the Trinity.
One God, one Lord
As monotheists, Muslims, Christians, and Jews all agree that there is only one true God. Jesus Himself upheld monotheism. When asked for the greatest command, Jesus responded, “. . . The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength” (Mark 12:29-30).
The Apostle Paul, leader of the early church, also taught monotheism: “There is no God but one. . . the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him (1 Corinthians 8:4-6).
As followers of Jesus, the early Christians preferred to reserve the title “God" for the one whom Jesus called "my Father and your Father" (John 20:17) and the title "Lord" for Jesus. This title indicates that Jesus is both Master and deity.
While the list of historical inaccuracies and anachronisms is vast, one has been selected for discussion here. Surah 20 relays the incident of the golden calf. In Surah 20:85-88, 95 we read:
“He [Allah] said, ‘We have tempted thy people since thou didist leave them. The Samaratin has led them into error.’ Then Moses returned…and we cast them [(gold) ornaments], as the Samaritan also threw them, into the fire.’ (Then he brought out for them a Calf, a mere body that lowed; and they said, ‘This is your god, and the god of Moses, whom he has forgotten.’)…Moses said, ‘And thou, Samaritan, what was thy business?’”
Now, let us consider this for just a moment. How can a Samaritan have led the Israelites astray at the time of Moses (approx 1400 BC) when the city of Samaria was founded by King Omri in about 870 B.C? The Samaritans did not exist until after the exile of the Northern kingdom of Israel and the resettlement of the area under king Sargon II in 722 B.C. with non-Israelites who then adopt a syncretism [mixture] between the religion of the Jews and their own polytheistic background. The Samaritans did not exist until 530 years after Moses. By this mistake alone, the Qur’an can be rendered unreliable and certainly not an inerrant work of God.
so , Having outlined just a handful of many problems and difficulties pertaining to the Qur’an as a divinely inspired work, one is all but forced to reject the Islamic claim that the Qur’an represents an error-free word of God to humanity. When a similar standard is applied to the Bible, the result is self-vindicating, for the Bible arrives high and dry as compared to the Qur’an.
The BIBIL prevails again.
Anonymous-
Smalley is right, I just scrolled down to his response to you...The above post that you made are borderline Spam and need to be deleted. Information overload...Make your point in a shorter form and go easy on the (........)
Only (...) three of them are required.
;)
Keep it simple .....perhaps you should take the time to read. Not spam, facts and evidence which the Atheists seek, but chose not to read as it prevails against your fallible theories.
"WHY DO YOU DRAW ON GOD?"
Strength, wisdom, inner peace, patience, endurance, understanding, connection to the greater consciousness.
But you must understand I see God differently than you do. I don't see God as someone who gives me those things or creates them in me. Or as someone who will grant my request or not. God did not create my desire to learn or my intentions, they always were. God is in everything, in me, in you, in the universe, I am a part of God as are you. Not seperate. All those things I draw on are already in the part of me that is God, but I can draw on God to magnify them or make them stronger when needed. I can draw on God because it is where I come from and where I will go back to when I finish this life.
God said in your bible "Before you were in the womb I knew you" because you were with God before you came here, he didn't create you in the womb. You were a part of God before you were born, you left for this life experience, when its over you will go back. Thats why a majority of the worlds populations know there is something more, because it is where we came from, we knew it before, we lived it before, it is in the part of us that is God. We just dont know what it is in our human brains, but we feel it, so we search for it, or we simply accept what someone told us it was. Depends on your specific need for the knowledge.
Let me ask you, have you ever had a God experience? And I dont mean something you percieved as a sign from God, or an answer to a question from your bible text. An actual connection or communication with God?
And if you believe that God communicated with all those authors of the bible why would you believe he doesn't communicate with people now?
Why do you think he stopped talking to his followers? If someone told you they talk to God and God talks back literally would you think them crazy? Has God ever talked to you, and I mean literally spoke to you, not through signs or biblical messages. A real honest communication with God, no middle man?
God said in your bible "Before you were in the womb I knew you" because you were with God before you came here, he didn't create you in the womb. You were a part of God before you were born, you left for this life experience, when its over you will go back
BUT you do not believe in the God of the Bible....So why do you trust that statement?
And, no I do not believe I was a spirit child and with god, then coming to earth to work my way back there.
For both of you: the anonymous Christian, and the half theist—half god person, the evidence is the same: none.
You not only hold the deist position, that something was necessary as a first cause, but you both actually claim to KNOW a personal god, and that he speaks to you, is a part of you, watches you, and has control (at least partially due to free will) over what you eat, drink, and think.
For the Christian, you're book is fallible, and I will prove that Saturday. It's a man-made archaic attempt at philosophy and the evidence will not hold up when I'm done with it. I can't wait to meet you there.
For the half god—half man: you got the idea of your god from the very Bible you reject, and have even less evidence for the existence of your deity than the Christian does. If it weren't for the Bible, you wouldn't even know the name "God," and would have no concept of an all-powerful being. So to claim to have intimate 'knowledge' that others don't have, as you reject the very source of your knowledge, is completely and utterly ridiculous.
Funny... the bible is not my source. The bible verse was for the christian. When debating the bible the best weapon is to use scripture. It leaves them speechless almost everytime.
"If it weren't for the Bible, you wouldn't even know the name "God," and would have no concept of an all-powerful being."
I wonder how all the other nations and villages of the world seem to know "an all powerful being" without the bible. Gods existed for people even before the bible, I wonder how that happened. Odd isn't it...lol. That is a ridiculous thing to say. The bible is not the worlds only source for God. But the bible seems to be your only focus, it is an easy target so I can see why you might want it to be the only reason people believe in God. You should expand your horizons, there is so much more out there than the bible to study. From reading your blog though I understand your focus on it, but I'm not gonna psychoanalyze that, I'll keep that observation to myself. And I use the term "God" because I live in America and it is what is understood in this country as something greater than just yourself.
Good luck with your debate, I dont think you will change any minds but I hope you have a good time.
David:
The Bible is fallible.
And what text books do you read from that are not man made? all the evidence you have is a man made attempt is it not?
See, us Christians, have something the non-christian doesn't. We have peace, hope and faith. You do not. We have evidenec straight from our history book, that has prophecy that was then revealed.
How do you explain the holy veil being ripped from TOP to Bottom......
-->The size and thickness of the veil makes the events occurring at the moment of Jesus’ death on the cross so much more momentous. “And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom” (Matthew 27:50-51a).
-->It signified that now the way into the Holy of Holies was open for all people, for all time, both Jew and Gentile.
-->The veil being torn from top to bottom is a fact of history. The profound significance of this event is explained in glorious detail in Hebrews. The things of the temple were shadows of things to come, and they all ultimately point us to Jesus Christ. He was the veil to the Holy of Holies, and through His death the faithful now have free access to God
God clearly demonstrated His existence many times in the Old Testament.
Exodus 14:21–22 (NIV)
21 Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and all that night the Lord drove the sea back with a strong east wind and turned it into dry land. The waters were divided, 22 and the Israelites went through the sea on dry ground, with a wall of water on their right and on their left.
...
1 Kings 18:19–31 (NIV)
19 Now summon the people from all over Israel to meet me on Mount Carmel. And bring the four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal and the four hundred prophets of Asherah, who eat at Jezebel’s table.”
20 So Ahab sent word throughout all Israel and assembled the prophets on Mount Carmel.
...
Let's talk about Job and Satan. Satan had a one on one conversation with God and the fallen angels were there too. Actually there were a few conversation between Satan and God regarding Job.
And the irony of that, is that even Satan believes in God, knew God, talked with God and even OBEYED God.
God told Satan he could TRY to tempt this faithful man, but God also told Satan he could not kill him. Satan said ok, but put Job through horrible trials, illnesses, killed his family ( well the fallen angels did ).
24 The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days.
Now, back then the earth was surrounded bu a, well let's called it a, huge sack of water. I guess you could say we were in a huge bubble of water. God warned Noah, Noah believed and then low and behold what happened.....The flood. And, even science agrees with that.
So how was it that one man knew this was going to happen HOW MANY YEARS BEFORE IT HAPPENED...then it happened.
Even your text books cannot disprove that. I mean your man made, hand written, revisited text books that your finite mind chooes to digest, yet not even really believe in. If you really believed in it, then you would not keep changing your theories.
Hebrews 11:6 declares, “And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.”
At the same time, it takes just as much faith to believe in atheism. To make the absolute statement “God does not exist” is to make a claim of knowing absolutely everything there is to know about everything and of having been everywhere in the universe and having witnessed everything there is to be seen. Of course, no atheist would make these claims.
However, that is essentially what you are claiming when you state that God absolutely does not exist. You or any atheist cannot prove that God does not, for example, live in the center of the sun, or beneath the clouds of Jupiter, or in some distant nebula.
Since those places are beyond our capacity to observe, it cannot be proven that God does not exist. It takes just as much faith to be an atheist as it does to be a theist.
Atheism cannot be proven, and God’s existence must be accepted by faith. Obviously, Christians believe strongly that God exists, and admit that God’s existence is a matter of faith. At the same time, we reject the idea that belief in God is illogical. We believe that God’s existence can be clearly seen, keenly sensed, and proven to be philosophically and scientifically necessary. “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge.
There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world” (Psalm 19:1-4).
If God so desired, He could simply appear and prove to the whole world that He exists.
But if He did that, there would be no need for faith.
“Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed’” (John 20:29).
Ecclesiastes 3:11 tells us, “…He has also set eternity in the hearts of men.”
“The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God’” (Psalm 14:1).
The most popular form of the ontological argument uses the concept of God to prove God’s existence. It begins with the definition of God as “a being than which no greater can be conceived.”
It is then argued that to exist is greater than to not exist, and therefore the greatest conceivable being must exist. If God did not exist, then God would not be the greatest conceivable being, and that would contradict the very definition of God
The teleological argument states that since the universe displays such an amazing design, there must have been a divine Designer. For example, if the Earth were significantly closer or farther away from the sun, it would not be capable of supporting much of the life it currently does. If the elements in our atmosphere were even a few percentage points different, nearly every living thing on earth would die. The odds of a single protein molecule forming by chance is 1 in 10243 (that is a 10 followed by 243 zeros). A single cell is comprised of millions of protein molecules.
A third logical argument for God’s existence is called the cosmological argument. Every effect must have a cause. This universe and everything in it is an effect. There must be something that caused everything to come into existence. Ultimately, there must be something “un-caused” in order to cause everything else to come into existence. That “un-caused” cause is God.
A fourth argument is known as the moral argument. Every culture throughout history has had some form of law. Everyone has a sense of right and wrong. Murder, lying, stealing, and immorality are almost universally rejected. Where did this sense of right and wrong come from if not from a holy God?
Romans 1:25 declares, “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.” The Bible also proclaims that people are without excuse for not believing in God:
“For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse” (Romans 1:20).
Better to be a blonde and believe...
Than a a fool who does not believe.
Denese
For every event from the bible that seems to have some kind of scientific evidence that the event happened there are just as many that can be proven didn't happen. So I guess you have a 50/50 shot at being right.
Thats why I call it a history book. Some of it is probably true written by men from their personal perceptions and beliefs at the time. And just like history books some of it is probably not true. Written from a distorted perception of a person who doesn't know what he was talking about. You must consider the source. Not only the source but also the translation, and the many events that took place in history to alter, distort, and erase many parts of the bible. Its current form is hardly what it was in its original state. You are working from a severly flawed and manipulated document that has been manipulated in a calculated way to exact power and control over a people who have been told the only way to God is through them and they used and abused the bible to do it. It has worked like a charm for those that fell for it, for those that didn't, the Christians slaughtered them.
The bible is errant, filled with contradiction and is in no way a godly way to live your life if you actually follow it. Now of course you can be like most Christians who dont really read it, and just listen to the happy stories in church. That way you can be a good person without really knowing what you are worshiping. That is how most christians live today.
"That is how most christians live today."....
......Very judgemental are you not?
......Now I do realize that Christians are not perfect, in fact, we will not be perfected until we see God face to face. I am sorry if Christians are humans and do not do everything exactly right by you and your idea of how each person should live and act.
......However, by your own proclamation, you are not perfect either. If you were, you would not need to draw on or near to God. Right?
......Examine your own life in your own mirror. That is what we are called to do personally and examine our own hearts. God is in control of everything, but that does not mean He is going to MAKE people act better. They have to choose to want to do good every second, every minute of every day. He allows us the FREE WILL because if he controlled every circumstance, every heart or every mind, then that makes Him a dictator...Where is grace and love in dictatirship. None.
Of course bad things happen and God accepts responsibility for it all as it is written in Isaiah 52.
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This is where the tiny, yet largest, word comes into play...FAITH !!
Pure faith accepts without seeing. Pure Faith accepts God's plan, whether we understand it or not. We are not going to understand everything about God. If we do, we place ourself on an equal playing field of being a god. ( Joseph Smith's fallible theory there ).
Satan decieves and even told us humans that we can be like God.
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I too believe that there are alot of lazy Christians going through the motions and not being fruitful or living up to God's word.
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But we have to look beyond that and make sure you yourself, me myself, is seeking God, doing His will and being Christ-Like. We cannot be perfect or like God, so our goal is to be Christ-lIke, to have Faith and to love as He loves us.
Denese
A relationship with God cannot be performanced based, it must be faith based.
"All babies are Atheists"....is from another one of your blogs......WHAT? Where in the heck did you get that from.
Using your theory, you are stating baby has the widsom of undestanding as soon as it comes into the world. You are also stating that in order for that baby to be an antheist, it automatically understands and accepts there is no god. WHAT ???
Also, for the record.....A Christian does not have to ask for repentance after his salvation in order to maintain his salvation. See sins, meaning ALL sins, meaning past, current and future sins were forgiven at the death of Christ.
Now, in ordere to reconcile/restore the relationship, we seek forgiveness from God after we have done wrong.
Also, your 4 yr olds ideas of the Moon being the boss, is just that...a 4 year olds ideas.
Anonymous Said: {"If God so desired, He could simply appear and prove to the whole world that He exists. But if He did that, there would be no need for faith."}
REALLY!? Satan knew that the god of the bible existed, and still turned away. So if you believe in Satan, then you must concede that knowing of the Christian god's existence still allows for free will and faith. Try again.
Denese wrote: {It's better to be a blonde and believe, than a a fool who does not believe.}
It's hilarious that you call me a fool, as you display a type-o (a a fool). Too funny!
It's hilarious that you call me a fool, as you display a type-o (a a fool). Too funny!
.......Is that all you have against me is a typo....i already told you I am not perfect.
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Yes, "REALLY", of course we have the free will to choose.....And the FAITH that comes in beieving.....You are so SILLY man.
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Getting a little aggitated are you....Good, The Holy Spirit is sitting right beside you.
PS....I did not call you a fool, older wise men from years ago did....But mind you, that goes fo all who do not believe. And, well, my dear friend, you will have to learn the hard way....But the easy way is right before you.
Eternal Salvation from Hell comes with faith that in Jesus Christ, Elohim.
""That is how most christians live today."....
......Very judgemental are you not?"
Not judgmental, observant. I could ask any christian on the street, or even any christian friend about the basic bible stories and they will know them. But ask them about how Saul was ordered by God to murder babies and children or how David was punished by God by having his wives raped in public by his neighbor, or the story of the man who gave up his mistress to the evil men in the city to be raped to death, then proceeded to cut her body up into 12 pieces, and they will usually shriek things like "thats not in the bible!" or "thats blasphemous!"
I am glad that most people are "lazy" christians as you say. Its not a bad thing that most people dont know the christian God they worship. I think they are better people for it. Because being "christ-like" is not a good thing in my mind. If you actually know what christ-like really means. Like I've said before actually reading the bible was probably the number one reason I turned away from it, as a good person with a conscious, I could not in my heart worship a God capable of such atrocities and pretend it was all good. Ha, thats probably why you wont hear those stories from the pulpit!
I don't draw on God to become perfect, there is no such thing as perfect. What is perfect anyway? All Goodness and light? That does not exist. God is not perfect by that definition either.
But you go on and keep trying to be christ-like. Tells me alot if you are one those who does read the bible. The crusades, the inquisitions and the witch hunts are all good examples of people actually being christ-like in its truest biblical form.
"A relationship with God cannot be performanced based, it must be faith based."
Thats what people who dont know how to perform always say...lol
Saul ...
..1 Samuel 8:7–9 (NIV)
7 And the Lord told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods
--we know that it was the Lord who brought all of this about because the people had forsaken Him and served other gods (1 Samuel 8:7-9
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Saul’s downward spiral continued as he failed to eliminate all of the Amalekites and their livestock as commanded by God (1 Samuel 15:3). Disregarding a direct order from God, he decided to spare the life of King Agag along with some of the choice livestock. He tried to cover up his transgression by lying to Samuel and, in essence, lying to God. This disobedience was the last straw as God would withdraw His spirit from Saul. The break between God and Saul is arguably one of the saddest occurrences in Scripture.
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But you do not believe in the God of the Bible, right?
Saul abused the power God had entrusted to him.
Thats right! God was angry with Saul because he did not kill all of the animals too I know!
But think about this for a minute.
If God told you to murder your neighbors infants and children, specifically mentioned for you to kill the babies, oh and don't forget their dog, because they are buddhists... would you do it? Would you feel good in your heart like you are doing Gods will? I guess the friendship fence would be out of the question...lol. How about us as a christian nation, shall we just start slaughtering neighboring nations who aren't christians. Oh yeah thats what the crusades were all about.
Why did you think God did not give those babies he had murdered a chance at the free will he supposedly lets everyone have?
I honestly dont know how otherwise intelligent people can read these stories and convince themselves that they are good stories. It baffles me.
Oh and I absolutely do not beleive in the God of the bible.
David,
There are a few problems with the information in the above article (btw, this is my first time to post a comment on your site).
The first problem I see is found in your statement, "Without the Bible, you wouldn't know the name Jesus..." This statement is false for several reasons...
(1) The Jewish Babylonian Talmud mentions Jesus (although he is mentioned unfavorably as a "sorcerer" who was hanged "on the eve of the Passover", he was still mentioned nonetheless).
(2) Pliny of Bithnia wrote to the Roman Emperor Trajan (circa. 112 A.D.) for advice on how to handle arrested Christians who would "sing to Christ, as to a god."
(3) Trajan wote back to Pliny of Bithnia (circa. 112 A.D.).
(4) Flavius Josephus (37-97 A.D.), historian for the Emperor Vespaion, mentioned Jesus as having been condemned by Pilot and put to death.
Many other examples could be given, but what I have listed will suffice as evidence that the Bible is not the only written record where Jesus Christ is mentioned.
Another problem with your blog is the allegation that without the Bible there would be no knowledge of the Ten Commandments. This too, is false. If a person had a copy of the Torah, but not the Bible, he still would have access to the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments have been passed down throughout Jewish society for thousands of years. A person would not have to have a Bible to know those commandments.
A third inaccuracy found in your commentary above is your statement, "no person that wrote the books of the Bible ever actually walked with, or met Jesus (except in visions or hallucinations). It was all passed down through word-of-mouth hope and faith." This statement is palpably false as well. Peter and John (just to name two of the New Testament penmen) worked side by side with Jesus on a daily basis during his earthly ministry.
I hope you will investigate the facts I've presented. I believe you will find that even without the Bible, we would still have written documentation about Jesus, His disciples, as well as the Ten Commandments.
I will be attending the debate you will be having this weekend with Mr. Hildreth. Although I am a Christian and believe with all my heart that God exists and that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, this is a much needed debate. I pray you will have an open mind and heart, that if valid evidence was presented to you, proving the God of the Bible exits, that you would toss your unbelief aside and step out of darkness and into the light.
Jeramie,
Thanks for the post.
I'm well aware of those other writings you mentioned, and thought about them when I typed that post, and that it may be misunderstood; so let me explain.
I was actually responding to an anonymous poster who claimed to "know God" but did not support the Bible, and said that he/she had read the entire Bible cover to cover.
So, the discussion was specifically about this person reading the Bible and then making up a different God, and having no evidence. So that's what I was referring to—that specific person wouldn't know about "God" without having read the Bible.
I'm well aware of the Torah and Orthodox Judaism, and of the other writings that claim the existence of Jesus. Those are for another debate.
Thanks for presenting me with the opportunity to clear those up. I'll see you Saturday—and I hope you introduce yourself.
John's account of being with Jesus has been said to be a forgery and is debatable. An old Bible was found with just 20 chapters of John, not 21. It is in that 21st chapter where John claims to be with Jesus.
As for Peter—that's the fellow that said it is shameful for women to speak in church, and they should remain submissive in silence, and ask their husbands at home if they had any questions! (1 Tim 2:11, 1 Cor 14:34).
WWJD?
You assume so much about me but know very little. I have read the bible cover to cover, as well as many other religious texts. My sources for God though are not found in any written word. And I do have my own evidence but I have never shared it here, so I understand your position of ignorance and assumption where I am concerned. I have had my own God experiences that millions across the world also share. Its not necessary for me to prove you wrong, which wont happen anyway unless you have your own experience, and you are not on a path of seeking that experience so it would be a waste of anyones time to show you, without you making the effort to find it. You don't really want to find it, it would mean you wasted so much of your time on this if you actually found it. I dont believe anything terrible is going to happen to you because you dont believe in God, and your soul does not need to be saved from a firy pit. I enjoy debating the bible with the christians who post here, it interests me to see their responses to someone who knows the bible as well as or better than they do. I hope to make them at least think about what it really is they are putting their faith in. Thats why Im here really. Dont worry though, I will tire of it soon, and be on my way.
Its impossible though for you to find evidence in the experiences of others, especially when you yourself cant, wont, or dont know how to have that experience or connection for yourself. You will just choose to not believe what others, who can experience, tell you. Its very limiting for you not to be able to open your mind to what others can experience, but it doesn't matter, you cant take those experiences away from them just because you dont want to believe them.
I suggest you look to science, since it seems to be the only place you want to find God. Science and God are not seperate. So much research has been done, and is continuing to be done. Some of it is truly amazing.
Well,
When you come here and claim to be on a personal level with a god that none of us have ever heard of, that deserves an explanation, yet you've refused to give it. When I make an assumption, you call me ignorant and say that I shouldn't make assumptions because I don't know you. It is you that has made an assertion you can't and won't support with evidence. You're becoming boring.
Here's the most beautiful part of this: your beliefs are not mysterious or interesting to me, because you've offered nothing but assertions with no substance. You can pretend to be the ultimate person, closest to a "semi-half god thing" that our feeble little minds just can't comprehend yet because we're not on your level—with special knowledge not available to the rest of us, and spout off on debate sites as if you are one of the few that actually know the ONE TRUE GOD—yea, we've heard that one before, in about 10,000 different religions, with 10,000 different names for those feelings they can't explain, and it's laughable each time. It's an archaic attempt at philosophy and science will win out in the end. Dr. David Eller said it best: Old gods aren't disproved, they're forgotten.
But it doesn't change the fact that you've made this up in your head, or accepted fallacies as proof. If you perhaps studied psychology, sociology, psychobiology, physiology, and biochemical reactions in the brain, you'd have a better understanding of what's happening in your body when you claim to have a religious experience.
Your god doesn't exist, no god exists. There are explanations for your 'experiences' but you are the one with a closed mind to the scientific facts of biology, and choose to explain that away with some metaphysical being that you've created as a delusion.
Maybe there is hope for you yet Smalley.
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
http://www.sciencefindsgod.com/famous-atheist-now-believes-in-god.htm
"If you perhaps studied psychology, sociology, psychobiology, physiology, and biochemical reactions in the brain, you'd have a better understanding of what's happening in your body when you claim to have a religious experience."
If you only knew...lol.
"Famous Atheist Believes In God"...
Woah, you're talking about Anthony Flew, and he has in no way conceded that he's a Christian! Be careful how you state that. Here's what he said...
"I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins." It could be a person in the sense of a being that has intelligence and a purpose, I suppose."
He's a deist, not a theist, and certainly not a Christian. Not that it would matter—he is 81, and we all know what can happen you get up there.
Boring? Really? I think the fact that this topic has the most comments you have ever recieved before would prove otherwise...lol.
You might even break 100 if your lucky.
Who said Flew was a christian? You are projecting again.
It has broken 100, but I think 50 of those are copy and pastes!
In all seriousness, there have been a lot of interesting posts in this thread, and a lot of contributors. It's been fun.
As for Flew being a Christian, when you post "Atheist Believes in God" with a capital G, you're insinuating he has a belief or affinity toward a specific god, not a generic deity. He's a deist, he doesn't 'believe' in any certain "God."
I just noticed something: you said 'projecting.' Did I semi-meet you roughly 9 weeks ago? Just a thought.
There was no insuation... The word God has such a wide breadth of meaning there is no way of knowing what is meant without further investigation of the intent.
God is a name: god is a title.
Go ask 20 people who the son of God is, and you will hear the name Jesus. You insinuated that an Atheist now believes in "God." It was intellectually dishonest, and should have been clarified to deism.
But no worries, I took care of that for you.
"Go ask 20 people who the son of God is, and you will hear the name Jesus."
Actually that all depends on where you live.
And I just posted the title to the article...lol. Flew called it a God himself.
But I did insinuate that there was hope for you...lol
"As for Peter—that's the fellow that said it is shameful for women to speak in church, and they should remain submissive in silence, and ask their husbands at home if they had any questions! (1 Tim 2:11, 1 Cor 14:34)"
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David: As a person who chooses not to believe in God or the Bible, you sure do lean on it alot. Why is that?....You cannot persecute the very thing you use all the time.
Now as for that scripture....As many do, many take scripture way out of context as you have.
First, what Jesus was saying about women being quite in the church, was just that. In the church. Women, like me, have no authority to PREACH and lead a congregation of men. Men were/are created as the head, as Jesus is the head of the church. Women, like me, have no authority over men in the church and are not to lead in THAT capacity.
In the home, the husband is the head, HOWEVER, we are equals. The HUSBAND is ultimately responsbile for leading the home as CHRIST LEADS THE CHURCH.
So please next time you post scripture, you nee to post it all in the correct context cross referencing other scriptures not pulling one and fitting it to your circumstance.
1 Corinthians 11:3 (NIV)
3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
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Ephesians 5:25–26 (NIV)
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
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Ephesians 5:22–24 (NIV)
22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
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Colossians 3:18–19 (NIV)
18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.
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1 Peter 3:7 (NIV)
7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.
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1 Timothy 2:11–12 (NIV)
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
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In the church, God assigns different roles to men and women. This is a result of the way mankind was created and the way in which sin entered the world
-->1 Timothy 2:13–14 (NIV)
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
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Many women excel in gifts of hospitality, mercy, teaching, and helps. Much of the ministry of the local church depends on women. Women in the church are not restricted from public praying or prophesying
--->1 Corinthians 11:5 (NIV)
5 And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved.
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God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers, or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women
---->Titus 2:3–5 (NIV)
3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4 Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to
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Denese
EX-ATHEISTS
Lee Strobel NOW Christian apologist
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C.S. Lewis abandoned his atheism and became a Christian
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Dr. Paul Vitz
People there is no vaguesness in the word god.
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"God"...With an upper case G - Is the proper and obedient way to address God - The God of the Bible.
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For all others it is "god"...Lower case.
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David:
"If you perhaps studied psychology, sociology, psychobiology, physiology, and biochemical reactions in the brain, you'd have a better understanding of what's happening in your body when you claim to have a religious experience.
Your god doesn't exist, no god exists. There are explanations for your 'experiences' but you are the one with a closed mind to the scientific facts of biology, and choose to explain that away with some metaphysical being that you've created as a delusion."
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WOW....You are extremely aggitated now. I think that is so good. But in reference to your above quote.........Sounds like you and Mr/Ms Anonymous are one in the same.
You have studied it all, too yet are still delusional, controversial and without any peace. YOU NO GOD DOES NOT EXIST EITHER.
Book of ACTS
- written between 61-64 A.D.
Book of Galatians
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Book of Galatians
- written between 48 and 55 A.D.
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Book of Mark
- written A.D. 57-59.
- written between A.D. 90 and 95
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Book of John
- written around A.D. 85-90 is
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Book of 1 John
- written between A.D. 85-95
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Book of 2 John
- written between A.D. 85-95.
Book of 3 John
- written between A.D. 85-95.
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Book of Luje
- written between A.D. 58 and 65.
Mr. Smalley:
From a blonde to a well educated man who can psychoanalize science and people, what do you continue to prove something that is not there?"
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Now that really blows my mind....You claim to be very well educated, but you are trying to prove something you say does not exist."
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How is it that you can prove something that does not or has never existed?"
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Blondie
( no pun intended for all you blondes out there - lol )
Now really Mr. Smalley
I am really scratching my head on this one.
How is that something that has never existed can leave evidence that it never existed?
It never existed, therfore it never was/
If it never was, then it cannot do something you say it does by leaving facts and evidence of its non existance because it never was?
Now I am the confused blonde !!
WOW - REALlY?
Just for the record Ms Anonymous is definately not Smalley. Smalley has a one track mind incapable of seeing things from anothers point of view so dismisses it as bunk. In my opinion he is proccupied in his life with christianity because it has affected his life, and not in a good way, and he wants to prove to those that may have hurt him that they did it for no reason... OK no more analyzing, I've assumed enough about Samlley.
And Denese, don't throw scripture around about women unless you really want to see what the bible says about women. It sickening actually. I dont have the time right now, I wish I did.
But you are equal to any man in every way, stop letting them fool you into beleiving you can't do things. Its a load of crap meant to keep you down and subservient. I actually have a christian friend who told me the other day that a woman should not be the president, because the man should be the head. What!!!
But you are here on this earth to be on your own path and for your own reasons. Do not let any idea of you being second hold you back from your life. If you ever feel restless, unsatisfied, or missing out its because you let those ideas of being less stop you from fulfilling your own self.
You were not put here as helper for men. If anything you came here to help men because boy do they need it...lol.
Ok, Ms. Anonymous....Now, you really did make me laugh and broght a smile on my face. Seriously, so smile and laugh back at me. Really.
I really do not feel like a subservient woman as you might think. I am pretty self reliant and do not feel that I have to bow to men and that men are above me whatsoever.
What I do know is that MEN have a duty to love use women...We have a duty to respect an honor.
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And what I do know is that if both roles are fulfilled, then it honors God and brings Glory to Him as it is the perfect example of God's marriage relationship to His Church, the body of believers.
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Now please understand this all you MEN reading this....This is in now way and escapte goat to treat women as a door mat, nor any escape goat for women not to honor and respect if the man does not do his part.
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But in order for it to really really really work, both parties have to do their part.
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If anything you came here to help men because boy do they need it...lol.
-- and the whole congregation on women and choir sang AMEN AMEN AMEN !! LOL
-- Thanks for the laugh....I really needed it today ;-).....
Man my typing stinks today.
"If anything you came here to help men because boy do they need it...lol."...
My male pastor would totally agree !!!!
lol - Blondie Denese
A couple of things:
1) I can't believe that you're okay with being second to a man. You've allowed them to brainwash you into thinking God said they should be in control. My wife and my daughter do not have that burden: they are truly free and equal to have any authority they earn. Atheists and Secular Humanists NEVER suppress women. I really hope you gain your Independence from that one day.
2) Charles Templeton and Dan Barker were both ministers and evangelists for more than 20 years before losing faith in Christ. I recently published an article in the American Atheist magazine titled "Preachers Who See the Sham," (the author's name escapes me at the moment) that was focused on those that went from Preacher to Atheist, or at least Agnostic. My point is, for every converted Atheist you find, I can find the opposite, so it doesn't prove anything. We're just stating facts on both sides.
3) Saying that I'm agitated is like saying a football player that aggressively tackles another player is angry. I am not agitated at all. If you knew me, you wouldn't say that. I enjoy the sport of debate, and have no problems speaking my mind. I have no malice in actions, only a desire to prove the truth.
4) It is impossible to prove a negative such as the existence of a god. I am not tasked with that. I have made no assertion that requires proof. The lack of your specific god's appearance when so many cry out to him for help (such as the children trapped under concrete in Haiti, and thousands of people with diseases, disorders, and missing limbs that pray to him every day, with him failing to come through) is evidence enough to not believe, especially when referencing Luke 11:9.
The inaccurate historical references in the Bible are enough to not believe; the contradictions in the Bible are enough not to believe, the talking animals, burning bushes, condoning of slavery, and bigotry portrayed in the Bible is enough not to believe. But I don't know that I could ever have indisputable evidence to prove to a Christian that their god is fictitious. That will only come from them seeking the evidence of evolution, and cosmology that's out there NOW for us to examine.
And it is an oxymoron to say "The man is the HEAD of the house, but we are equal!" What?!
Brainwashing. Good girl.
"they are truly free and equal to have any authority they earn."
-------> EARN ?? - Hypocrite !!!!
Never Suppress Women -
------->THEY HAVE TO EARN WITH YOU - Hypocrite
You hope I GAIN, you mean by EARNING
-------> you just suppressed your own wife and daughter - Hypocrite
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Smalley - You are trying to prove what you actually believe was never there to begin with - You are a double minded and very unstable man. Evolution has been prove fallible. You talk about all the negative ..Because you see things as negative;
YET YOU NEVER TALK ABOUT THE GOOD !!
You can blame God for the negative
You choose not to blame God for the good !!
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Why is that?
Becasue if you blame Him for the good, you have to admit He ezist. But your ego and lack of humility, aka PRIDE, gets in the way.
Why are you blaming GOD, who you says, does not exist, for all the things that happen or does not happen?
The TRUTH !!
--- You are ACNKNOWLEDING GOD EXIST, by blaming Him for not stopping the bad things that happened ....You are questioning GOD, just as Jesus did my saying " Father Father, why has thou foresaken me"......
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I would HIGHLY encourage you to keep asking GOD whey He did not stop Haiti?
As teared rolled down my face the day I saw that and all the children. I wondered that too. I think we all did.
But God's ways are higher and there are things we will not and cannot comprehend. You are living proof of not being able to comprehend. But we have all seen GOOD come from it.Twisted yes, but there has been GOOD come from it.
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Now, blame the GOOD ON GOD !!!
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But you cannot sit here and blame the bad on a god you say does not exist.
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Since you like a good challenge...I challenge you to get on your knees ( shows humbleness ) and ask God this " God, I do not understand ( because David you DON'T ), but God help me to understand. And David tell Him, you don't believe, but ask Him to help you believe !!
- If you do, you do not have to respond. If you don't you do not have to respond on this site. That is between you and Him.
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But honestly David, is it really going to hurt you to ask the God I believe in? Probably not.
You spend so much time asking, searching, seeking and reading everything else but the very own God you have yet to ask so far.
Just try it !! Please.
You've misinterpreted my words yet again, which doesn't surprise me given your interpretation of the scriptures. I NEVER said my wife and daughter had to EARN anything FROM ME. You added that.
I was talking about earning authority in the work place, or in any group they join, as they work their way up and EARN merit and respect of others to gain a position of authority; they will never be limited by their gender.
In your church, it doesn't matter how intelligent, faithful, loyal, or efficient you are as a leader, YOU WILL NEVER be equal to men because of your gender. YOU CANT EARN a position of power over men, YOU CANT EARN a position to teach men, and it's all because of the discrimination and bigotry in the church. You support your own suppression due to brainwashing.
My wife and daughter do not have that limitation.
You literally made me laugh out loud when you said that evolution has been proven false. YOU REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, visit just ONE museum; read just ONE book on anthropology, and you will see how silly your statement is.
When I "blame the Christian god" for something, I am not acknowledging his existence. I am using that to prove that an all-good god can't be responsible for something so horrific; so therefore it must not exist. I didn't think I had to spell that out for you, but apparently, I did.
Perhaps if I had written it down 2,000 years ago in a language you didn't speak, THEN you would trust me!
QUOTE " My wife and my daughter do not have that burden: they are truly free and equal to have any authority they earn."...END QUOTE
------- YOU SAID THEY EARN IT ------
QUOTE " Atheists and Secular Humanists NEVER suppress women." END QUOTE
-- YOU JUST DID BY SAYING THEY EARN IT -----
- QUOTE " I really hope you gain your Independence from that one day" END QUOTE
---Now I have to GAIN by EARNING ----
If I don't earn, I don't gain THEREFORE I a supprsesed.
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Never equal to a MAN....Wrong.
28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church
----Like I said, it is the MAN's responsibility to make sure HIS WIFE is equal to him...If that theory fails, it is the HUSBAND who has failed it.....
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A wife should submit to her husband, not because women are inferior, but because that is how God designed the marital relationship to function. Submission is not a wife’s being a “doormat” for her husband. Rather, with the help of the Holy Spirit, a wife submits to her husband, and a husband sacrificially loves his wife
-----But you fail there too because your wife and daughter have to EARN their equality and that is why you do not like that scripture, because it appears you cannot fall under its authority.
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QUOTEWhen I "blame the Christian god" for something, I am not acknowledging his existence. I am using that to prove that an all-good god can't be responsible for something so horrific; so therefore it must not exist. I didn't think I had to spell that out for you, but apparently, I did"
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Absolutely you are admitting he exist. In order to blame something, that something has to be. Else you are blaming nothing.
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So which is it-----God exists in trajedy
.................God does not exist in tragedy?
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And if you are saying Christian God does not exist, then stop blaming the Christian God, because remember....You say He does not exist. So if He does not exist, how can you blame something that does not exist...It never was!! Never was has not purpose or structure, right.....
" an all-good god can't be responsible for something so horrific '
- He takes responsibility for everything -
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Can you quote Isaiah 52 !!
Women earn it, just as men earn it. Women don't have to earn it from men. Authority is socially earned in all respects, equally: unless you're Christian. Then men have authority because they're men, and women submit because it is shameful for them to speak in church (1 Tim 2:11).
"A wife should submit to her husband...that is how God designed the marital relationship."
"God takes responsibility for everything." (including evil, death, disease, and disasters)
I see what has happened here. Here's the difference between us:
You accepted the truth of God BEFORE reading the Bible. Therefore, whatever you read afterward, you believed it, and that's just the way it is. So when things are uncomfortable for you, just as mental retardation, sickness, suppression, earthquakes, starving children, etc., you make excuses to support them and make them okay in your mind.
For me, I thought I was Christian, but after investigating the Bible and our world objectively to see if I was, I did not believe it. I did not already assume it was true. I read it objectively to see if I could buy into it, and I couldn't it, for those same reasons you excuse with godly answers.
To answer these types of questions, you must admit, you have to stretch quite a bit into the metaphysical, supernatural world. In my view, the answers to all these questions make sense, when you don't apply the answer of an all-powerful god.
That's really all it comes down to. That's the difference between us.
No.
Quote "So when things are uncomfortable for you, just as mental retardation, sickness, suppression, earthquakes, starving children, etc., you make excuses to support them and make them okay in your mind".
Sometimes that is just called LIFE.
mental retardation - Really what is this?....They are precious to me and honestly the mentally retared have alot more wisdom that one could ever imagine. They know how to soften my heart with just a smile on their face. And why hasn't science been able to fix this?
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sickness - And why hasn't science been able to fix this?
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earthquakes - And why hasn't science been able to fix this?
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starving children - why do adult bring children into the world knowing they cannot feed them? Why is that God's fault?
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Why is it that the Chrisian God has not stopped you from surrending your will, your mind, your body and your soul to Him?
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Can you help me understand what you meant by you though you were Christian?
---Would you mind telling me your story behind that so I can try to understand you more?
I would really appreciate you for doing that?
Denese
I just get the feeling that you're not reading what I'm typing. You must be scanning it and making assumptions, because you wouldn't say some of these things.
1) I just said that EVERYONE has to earn authority, and we do so equally. You said that because I used the word 'earn' I am suppressing women. That doesn't make sense. I'm not saying women have to earn anything from men; I'm saying that EVERY position of authority, held by men and women both, must be earned in their respective field. In the Christian organization, women aren't allowed to earn it, because you are suppressed. Making it so that men and women both have equal opportunity to earn authority is the opposite of suppression and the opposite of the Christian teachings. I really hope you get it this time.
2) I've said that I am not acknowledging the existence of the Christian god by 'blaming' him for things. I use those words as if he were real to prove that he can't exist if those things happen. I don't know how I could be more clear. The god of the Bible claims to be "Good," and "all-powerful." If he is good, and has the power to stop bad things, and doesn't, then he can't exist, because that would make him bad. Therefore, if he's bad, he can't be good, which the Bible describes him as, therefore he doesn't exist as the Bible describes, which proves the Bible wrong about "God."
That is not acknowledging that the god is real, I am only acknowledging the fallacy and contradicting properties used to describe that god. It's a method of disproving something's existence, buy showing that it's impossible. I'm not ACTUALLY blaming that god for anything, I'm saying that because those things happen, a GOOD GOD cannot watch and do nothing. I really hope you get it this time, I don't know what else I could say to be more clear.
Science is still evolving. For sickness we have medication. No god provided that, science did. Do you pray for headache to go away, or do you take Advil? That's right, you trust science because your god lets you down.
For earthquakes and many other major disasters, we can at least predict them, and perhaps will one day alter the environment. We're not there yet, but that's not to say we won't be. That technology didn't come from any god, it came from science. There are multiple brain disorders and mental illnesses that can be cured with science. Generalized Anxiety Disorder can be corrected with does of Zoloft, Xanax, and other medications. Schizophrenia can be maintained with medications as well. The list goes on. When prayer fails, science and medicine step in. Those medicines did not float down from heaven; but were invented by science.
I'm releasing a book later this year with my full story in it as I searched for Christ. Hopefully you can read it then, and get an understanding of my objective view at the scriptures as I truly searched and found nothing.
" The god of the Bible claims to be "Good," and "all-powerful." If he is good, and has the power to stop bad things, and doesn't, then he can't exist, because that would make him bad"....That is YOUR assumption. That simply means, Him, being GOD, that he CHOOSES not too. In all honesty, under what authority do you have to question GOD's decisions and nature? He is God.
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The god of the Bible claims to be "Good," and "all-powerful." If he is good, and has the power to stop bad things....
....Please read Isaiah 52 again and again - God claims responsbility for ALL, good and evil.....His desire is for good, but there are people who choose bad.....
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A GOOD GOD cannot watch bad things happening.....Then why is HE allowing you to reject Him?
In your eyes you think that is GOOD and OK?
In His eyes, it is blasphemy?
So where does God draw the line?
Right now, My Good God is watching you reject Him. That is bad to Me and Him.
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See, to Him blasphemy and denial is worse than any earthquake, disaster, mentally challenged or sick person.
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So, using your same theory that as a GOOD GOD he should intervene, what should He do with you?
For sickness we have medication. No god provided that, science did.
----Who created the mind that supplied the knoweldge to create medicines?
----Who created the chemicals?
----But medicines make people even more sick right? Not all medicines are curing everything right?
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Prayer for my headache --Absolutely !!
And God also gave me the free will to take an Advil if I want to. There is no harm in that.
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So who predicited Haiit and its outcome?
---If we can fully predict them, why has man come up with the resolution of stopping them?
- Not there yet, but not to say you won't be - What proof do you have that you will be there one day ----NONE.
------You are saying you have faith in what MIGHT COME...
......Who are you to determine when and if prayer fails? You do not pray; therefore, you do not understand something you do not do.
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Invented by Science - NOEE - Back up, the scientist had to be created and that takes a creator.
Failed Prayer?.
...so basically your idea of praying to God is that you pray and God answers on your timing and according to what you want !!!
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...Does not work that way. I pray, I ask and God answers in His timing. He is God, not me.
...
Denese
Why does God allow earthquakes, tornados, hurricanes, tsunamis, typhoons, cyclones, mudslides, and other natural disasters? Tragedies such as the 2004 tsunami in Asia, Hurricane Katrina in 2005, the 2008 cyclone in Myanmar, and the 2010 earthquake in Haiti cause many people to question God’s goodness. It is distressing that natural disasters are often termed “acts of God” while no “credit” is given to God for years, decades, or even centuries of peaceful weather. God created the whole universe and the laws of nature (Genesis 1:1). Most natural disasters are a result of these laws at work. Hurricanes, typhoons, and tornados are the results of divergent weather patterns colliding. Earthquakes are the result of the earth’s plate structure shifting. A tsunami is caused by an underwater earthquake.
The Bible proclaims that Jesus Christ holds all of nature together (Colossians 1:16-17). Could God prevent natural disasters? Absolutely! Does God sometimes influence the weather? Yes, as we see in Deuteronomy 11:17 and James 5:17. Numbers 16:30-34 shows us that God sometimes causes natural disasters as a judgment against sin. The book of Revelation describes many events which could definitely be described as natural disasters (Revelation chapters 6, 8, and 16). Is every natural disaster a punishment from God? Absolutely not.
In much the same way that God allows evil people to commit evil acts, God allows the earth to reflect the consequences sin has had on creation. Romans 8:19-21 tells us, “The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.” The fall of humanity into sin had effects on everything, including the world we inhabit. Everything in creation is subject to “frustration” and “decay.” Sin is the ultimate cause of natural disasters just as it is the cause of death, disease, and suffering.
We can understand why natural disasters occur. What we do not understand is why God allows them to occur. Why did God allow the tsunami to kill over 225,000 people in Asia? Why did God allow Hurricane Katrina to destroy the homes of thousands of people? For one thing, such events shake our confidence in this life and force us to think about eternity. Churches are usually filled after disasters as people realize how tenuous their lives really are and how life can be taken away in an instant. What we do know is this: God is good! Many amazing miracles occurred during the course of natural disasters that prevented even greater loss of life. Natural disasters cause millions of people to reevaluate their priorities in life. Hundreds of millions of dollars in aid is sent to help the people who are suffering. Christian ministries have the opportunity to help, minister, counsel, pray, and lead people to saving faith in Christ! God can, and does, bring great good out of terrible tragedies (Romans 8:28).
Recommended Resource: Disappointment with God by Philip Yancey.
I think I accidentally bought a ticket for the crazy train, and I need to pull the emergency brake. Why is it not working?!?!
You guys are talking in circles, no one is reading the posts of others and responding on assumptions. Its silly to read this.
I will help clarify.
Smalley does not believe in God, he is just trying to use what christians believe about God against them. So when he says a Good God wouldn't let this happen, he doesn't believe thats what happened, he is just questioning you as to why you would believe it happens that way. If your God is good, and controls all things why would he let bad things happen. This is what Smalley is questioning of you christians in the hopes that you will see the light or something.
Smalley on the other hand is misinterpreting what christians actually believe about God so his arguments are not making sense to the christians. Christians know God lets bad things happen, they dont understand it, and choose to believe on faith that there is a reason. So trying to tell a christian that their God is not real because he lets bad things happen makes absolutely no sense to them, because they already believe he lets bad things happen.
There is a process that one must go through to turn away from the bible I believe, Smalley is trying to get people to jump ahead in the process and that is why its not working.
Science and God are not seperate, so many people trying to keep them seperate are missing the mark, not completing the circle, only getting halfway there, thats why you face so much fight in your life. I suppose science has not been able to prove "God" in whatever sense, exists or doesn't at this point but its coming. Physicists, biologists, psychologists, nuerologists and many others are involved in these experiments and studies happening right now. I hope to be part of them.
he is just trying to use what christians believe about God against them.
-----> Well, that ain't gonna work
..........We is BELIEVERS by FAITH
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in the hopes that you will see the light or something.
.......We sees da LIGHT
God said He is the Way, the Truth and da LIGHT
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I suppose science has not been able to prove "God" in whatever sense, exists or doesn't at this point but its coming.
......BRING ON THE RAPTURE.......
And that will be your one day...Then you will see da light....
.....Else call GE to turn it on.....but science has been able to make light bulb stay on very long either.......
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"I think I accidentally bought a ticket for the crazy train, and I need to pull the emergency brake."....funny funny
I just let the Clarol soak in way to long !!!
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Science and God are not seperate...AMEN sista !!
.......God created the Scientist and the brain inside the scientists head...Scientist decided to use the brain....But the brain is still limited to being finite, thus we are at faith in the Creator of ALL things.
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The there's the full cirle.
Denese
Scientist decided to use the brain....But the brain is still limited to being finite, thus we are at faith in the Creator of ALL things."
Humans do not use most of their brains. There are parts of your brain that are dormant because you dont use it. Those parts that can connect with God need to be stimulated and exercised to work fully. Those parts have and are being studied by scientists and observed during a spiritual experience. Christianity keeps these parts dormant so that your connection is with it instead of with God. That was the intention when the bible was put together. The parts of the bible that said God is within you, and you get to God through you were the parts they left out on purpose. Because if you did not need the church to get to God then they would not have the power over you that they wanted. They absolutely got what they wanted.
Have you ever wondered why Jesus' entire adolescence is missing from the bible? They left that part out.
Faith is not necessary.
Well, if the scientist know it all, why haven't they figured out and used all of their brain too.
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Show me one HISTORY BOOK, that is completely written? If you say there are those books like that, then you choose to have FAITH in that one book.
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Christianity keeps these parts dormant so that your connection is with it instead of with God.
.........Why do you have FAITH in that statement or the alleged facts within this statement?
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The CHURCH....I am the CHURCH, the CHURCH is the believers...NOT a physical building. That is just a place of worship dear. Should we gather with a group of believers, absolutely, to encourage, to talk, to socialize, to worship as commanded in the Bible not to foresake the gathering. And we are instructed to renew our minds daily in the word of God...To seek....To learn...To trust....
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Now I wonder why scientist just cannot figure out why we do not use all of our brains. They have been studying that for how long !!
I dont have Faith in any book, its just information for you that is documented historical fact for you to look up so that you can be fully informed as to what you are putting your faith in and how much The Founders of your Church have decieved you.
I can find God, I have no need for Faith.
What FACTS do you have Ms. Anonymous that you can find God?
If I am reading you right, you are making a few assumptions:
1. that Christians should depend on the Bible to believe that the message of Christianity is true.
2. we wouldn’t know about the Jesus without the Bible
3. that there is some kind of scandal in the make up and canonization of the Bible
4. the belief in ‘inspiration’ of the Bible is the crux between Christianity and other religions
1 &2 Christians existed before the Council of Nicaea. Also, there were early Christians that existed outside of Constantine’s empire that had their own collected writings.
3.1 I don’t know why it matters that a collection of writings were of so many different writers and languages and over such and such period of time… who cares? I think it’s much more scandalous that among the various types of writing there is erotica and mythology.
3.2 Canonization and inspiration don’t go together. The canon was assembled based on what writings were most frequently referenced, it was convenient. I think the first issue that arose about the Bible concerning the canon was the issue of authority. Some time later the issue of reliability was raised. The issue of inerrancy came very late in the history of Christianity. It is still an in-house debate. And the inerrancy camp itself is divided into five major schools of thought.
4. The message of Jesus is unique among all other world religions. It’s a better message.
here's my two cents on the reliability of the Bible
The only parts of the Bible worth scrutinizing are the gospels. It is the only part of any consequence. The gospels hold up quite well when scrutinized fairly by the same criteria that you would scrutinize any other writing from that far before the printing press. But, you have to admit that the tendency is to put a higher level of scrutiny on the gospels because of the implications, the message.
Why John 3:16 is a Lie
By Harry H. McCall, CET
Lets look at this famous Gospel tract evangelical verse cited in the late Gospel of John in light of the older Bible traditions themselves.
First the verse:
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Deception 1: For God so loved the world, (1 John 2:15 plainly states: “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” So, on the one hand we are told God loves the world only to be again told for Christians not to love the world. Since, in both cases the Greek word here is κόσμον, one is feed a flat out contradiction especially in light of the statement of Jesus “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Perfection is not contradiction!
Secondly, if God really loves the world, he would not have destroyed it in the flood of Noah. Love and destruction are totally antonyms.)
Deception 2: …that He gave His only begotten Son, (In Genesis 6:2 we are clearly told: “that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.” Just as the Hebrew states: בְנֵי־הָאֱלֹהִים וַיִּרְאוּ God already had “sons” plural! So one must wondered, even if the Hellenistic Greek writer of John did not understand the Hebrew text, he surly had the LXX which clearly states “οἱ υἱοὶ τοῦ θεοῦ”.
The fact that God had sons (Plural) is again clearly stated in Job 1: 6 “the sons of God (אלהים) came to present themselves before the LORD (יהוה). While Christians get all choked up about God giving his only son, Jesus; they need to read and believe their Bibles more!
Deception 3: …that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, (The problem posed here is the fact that orthodox Christian dogma states (as based on Jesus and the New Testament) that the soul of the non-believer will suffer for eternity in the fires of torment. The Greek word here is “ἀπόληται” clearly means “to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively -- destroy, die, lose, mar, perish”. So which is it? The dead according to both atheists and Jehovah Witnesses are simply fully destroy meaning no eternal soul / nothingness. So, we could say that John 3:16 supports the atheist view of life too!)
Deception 4: …but have eternal life. (The propaganda sold in this verse is to an ancient world has its Sitz im Leben society where the average person making it to the age of 30 was considered old and where a simple abscessed tooth could mean certain death, and the promise for the average person to be a god like the Egyptian Pharaoh or a Roman Cesar working miracles and not spiritually dying meant that the masses could be like the gods themselves (to argue that “ζωὴν αἰώνιον” means that the dead believer lives forever in Heaven is not only a contradiction of terms, but really begs the question all over again as to what not being destroyed and living forever plainly means). When one considers the older Hebrew stories of Enoch, Moses and Elijah along with the Greek story of the miracle worker Apollinus of Tyana who too is claimed also to have never died; the false claim in eternal life in John 3:16 is given even more credence as it was preached a superstitious and mostly literate masses of the Greco-Roman empire to gain fast converts in a ancient world that swam in a sea of competing religions and promises of hope. End the end, it was Christianity which out sold its fellow religions with verses like John 3:16 which promised miracle working god status superstitious world.
In conclusion, in relation to John 3:16, we must understand that hope need not be true (as this verse is not when place in both its Biblical and historical context. It only needs to be hope with the old circus con-game: Everybody plays! Everybody wins!
Harry, less is more.
deception #1
So when Michael Jackson sang 'we are the world' that must have been very confusing for you.
secondly, Flood, it's a borrowed myth. Shame on you, you should know better.
deception #2
Once again, Michael Jackson 'we are all God's children' that must be confusing to you.
secondly, Job is older than Genesis, myth
deception #3
You claim to know "orthodox Christian Dogma"? Did you know that the Jehovah's Witness is a cult? The doctrine of Hell is neither essential nor universally agreed upon.
deception #4
This is just kind of a grumpy rant about the growth of the early Church.
If you want to imply a deception then it would be better to say that instead of eternal life, Jesus actually gives... discounts on car insurance.
David....333 you're only half evil. The goal is 000
LOL. Not evil at all. In fact, there's no such thing. Good one though.
Dear Anon,
I read about two lines of what you wrote before scanning down to someone who had something of worth to say.
It's "Christians" like you that make me picture an old homeless person, all dirty and crazy in the eyes, standing on a corner with a sign that reads "The end is near".
There is more to life than copying scriptures. Go outside! Enjoy the sunshine! Smell a flower!
I do believe that the anonymous person who wrote all the copy and paste replies is batspit crazy.
I hope she has got some help by now.
im sorry to the anonymous christian, i never normally criticize people of their beliefs in this way, but you, ma'am, are mentally ill.
@All of you God haters
Wow! Just checking out the other rooms here...most of your comments are destroyed by comments in other rooms. Your atheist morals stand on a christian mountain.
I have to say, it is SOOO funny reading all the xians that post here. They are obviously stuck in their own little worlds.
The question is: can the bible possibly be the "divine word of god?" The answer is: no. There are too many contradictions, inconsistencies, logical fallacies and flat out lies for it to be considered "divine."
To use quotes out of it to prove it is true is just bug-nuts crazy. To use "prophesies" out of it that are then ONLY verified from within it (and usually not even then) is fantastical. Basically they are saying that if someone pulled a card out of a deck and I guessed correctly 1 out of 100 times, that would prove that I'm psychic. If you strip away all the times that the bible is wrong, then what's left is a couple of correct guesses, so it must be divine!
It's also funny how xians have to go off on completely unrelated tantrums during a discussion like this.
Is there really a god? That has nothing to do with this question. Did jesus exist? That has nothing to do with this discussion. If jesus existed, was he the embodiment of yhwh? That has nothing to do with this discussion.
And speaking of other religious texts; to "disprove" their validity by comparing them to the bible is absolutely hilarious. It really does prove that these people are completely delusional. "I don't believe those lies because they contradict the lies that I DO believe!" HAHAHA
All in all, almost everything that I've read here by xians is just circular logic. "The 'proof' that the bible is true is that I believe the bible is true." There is nothing else.
A couple of things in the original statement are incorrect. The Torah(first four books of the old testament), was written down and put together before Jesus was born. So the 10 commandments were written before the time you are talking about.
Actually, according to the bible the 12 deciples were with Jesus a ton of the time, and wrote some books of the bible.
The "40 men that wrote the bible" wrote God's word. They were not inspired. They were told, what to write.
I read some to the books taken out of the bible. Most of them weren't written with God, I know you want a more concrete answer but I personally believe that if God wanted them in the bible he would have put them in the bible.
If your thinking the Da Vinci Code, there has been more evidence proving that those events did NOT happen, than there are that did.
There is no concrete, black-or-white answer to this. The fact is if you believe in God, you believe that the book that he "shows" you is write.
Now why I don't believe in the Qur'an. The Qur'an contradicts it's self in a terribly obvious way. If you read the Qur'an, you read were it says "above all you must obey the teachings and life of Muhamid(I know I spelt it wrong)". Muhamid was the one that created the idea of killing the unbelievers. Where in the Qur'an, it is a "sin" to kill. and the Qur'an talks of a peaceful religion, where as if you read the life of Muhamid it isn't. This is a much BIGGER deal than a Christian that doesn't follow "the way". It pretty much says that Muhamid is perfect, although he never actually followed what he wrote.
I haven't read enough to have a reason not to read other books. I read them, read their history, read about the authors. Now Christianity's history shows that Christians aren't perfect, but the bible says they aren't in the first place.
I have my reasons to read the bible. Do you have reasons not to?(I'm actually really asking that)
Lindsey
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Anon is using the argument from length here's how it goes
ARGUMENT FROM LENGTH
(1) Here is a 200 page document, all in one giant paragraph, that proves God's existence.
(2) You didn't refute the third argument on page 167.
(3) Therefore, God exists.
if atheist asked questions be sure not to answer them!
jimmyc U.K
Wow, I think I've just read the full bible! Anyway, just some points.
I wont go into the contradictions within the bible itself, to itself, this site does a great great job of this already. But let me just ask:
Who are the authors of the bible? Do you know them all? Do you have external character references for those who's names you know to be factual?
You cant use a book to justify itself. Or I would believe Robert Langdon found out DaVinci's secret code in Italy. Why? because It says it did in the book, urgo it must be true? Even though I know Robert Langdon to be fictional, yet I 'Believe' it to be true. So it is fact! . . . Do you see the absurdity in that?!
This may have been used before, but I saw this question once and so will pose it to anyone who believes in a perfect being. (not C/P so may be worded wrong) - "God has granted me two wishes to ask of him.
I ask him 1st, to create a box so heavy, that he himself, God, cannot lift it. Then my next wish is for him, with no alternate dimension kind of trickery, but in our physical universe, to lift that box.
He will either be unable to lift it, and so I have found a task he cannot do (not perfect then) or he will lift it, and so he will fail the 1st task (another fail, not perfect). The concept of God is rationally absurd.
Also, a quick point that someone asked how so many people worldwide believed in God without the bible. Do you know ANY history? People believed in all sorts of magical beings and myths before science came along, some had human attributes, some animals, some just weather. But 'the 1 god' (that has several THOUSAND sects) spread because of a huge army that emerged from I think Rome, who burned as many Pagan and pre-christian books that taught anything else, and killed anyone that chose not to believe or taught their children anything different. The Spanish and french did the same in S. and N. America, and thats how it spread. Moron. Ask a native Indian about '1 true God' before the Europeans arrived.
Idiot.
TO ALL THEISTS. Stop making up lies and pretending they are true!! You know they are lies, and to pass them on as true with this knowledge supports only yourself, as you would feel for an unknown reason, upset by admitting a perfectly natural thing. You was wrong. There is no shame it, it is the best learning technique we know. Stop telling LIES!!!
I'm sure it's one of your 150 sins somewhere . . .
I wish to re-post this as I feel emotion got the better of me 1st time round, so I apologies and will ask the same things again without the needless insults added. I debate things on youtube, if anywhere, and it can get heated on there sometimes, and I shouldn't bring that to a very respectable site. again, apologies, and hope I can post again and admin remove the uglier version. So, as it started -
Wow, I think I've just read the full bible! :-) Anyway, just some points.
I wont go into the contradictions within the bible itself to itself, this site does a great great job of this already. But let me just ask:
Who are all the authors of the bible? Do you know them all? Do you have external character references for those who's names you know to be factual? If somebody says he was with 50 friends as he wrote it, did they exist, or where they also made up. Did they have jobs?
2. You cant use a book to justify itself. Or I would believe Robert Langdon found out DaVinci's secret code in Italy. Why? because It says he did in the book, urgo it must be true? Even though I know Robert Langdon to be fictional, yet because I 'Believe' it to be true, So it is fact! . . . Do you see the absurdity in that?!
If elvis wrote a book saying he would return from the dead once he had passed, and another man 10 years after his death said he spoke to elvis yesterday, along with 5 friends, but we dont have the friends names or account of things, nor do we know much about the claimant, should we take it as true and thus a fulfilled prophecy if a 3rd party puts the note and book together?
This may have been used before, but I saw this question once and so will pose it to anyone who believes in a perfect being. (not C/P so may be worded wrong) - "God has granted me two wishes to ask of him.
I ask him 1st, to create a box so heavy, that he himself, God, cannot lift it. Then my next wish is for him, with no 'alternate dimension' kind of trickery, but in our physical universe, to lift that box.
He will either be unable to lift it, and so I have found a task he cannot do (not perfect then) or he will lift it, and so he will fail the 1st task (another fail, not perfect). The concept of a perfect God is rationally, and physically, absurd to me.
Also, a quick point that someone asked how so many people worldwide believed in God without the bible.
People believed in all sorts of magical beings and myths before science came along, some had human attributes, some animals, some just weather. But 'the 1 god' (that has several THOUSAND sects btw) spread because of a huge army that emerged from, I think, ROME, who crossed lands and burned as many Pagan and pre-christian books that taught anything else that wasn't god, as well as killed anyone that chose not to believe in this god, or taught their children anything different. The Spanish and french did the same in S. and N. America, and thats how it spread. Ask a native Indian about '1 true God' before the Europeans arrived.
Lastly, TO ALL THEISTS. Stop making up lies and pretending they are true!! You know they are lies, and to pass them on as true with this knowledge, supports only yourself, not your faith. And you do this as you would feel, for an unknown reason, upset, by admitting 1 perfectly natural thing. You was wrong. There is no shame it, it is the best learning technique we know. So please, Stop telling LIES!!!
I'm sure it's one of your 150 sins somewhere . . .
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Ancient Egypt Map and Ancient Egyptian Names
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