You will get to hear Dr. Creamer answer this question on his show Monday, but I’m curious of all the reader opinions as to how you will defend this. This was a big question that no one could answer with something that made logical sense, and played a major role in me rejecting Christianity prior to my Atheism.
The main prospect of Christianity is that “God” sacrificed his son for us. Because of that sacrifice, when an Atheist turns away from the belief, that is a slap in the face to “God,” “Jesus,” and followers of the Bible.
We are viewed as not accepting an amazing gift, because that is the ultimate show of love—to lose your son to save someone else. It does sound very compassionate.
We equate that to losing one of our children, and many ask…”What if you sacrificed a child for me, and then I walked away from you?” Yes, that’s very powerful, but here’s the difference, and the main basis of my argument against Christianity:
A sacrifice means to lose something, or give it up for a cause. So if I sacrificed something I owned or cared about, I would lose it for the sake of something greater, and would therefore be without that object of love. But in the fundamental belief of Christianity, Jesus is with “the Father” right now in heaven! He resurrected and ascended to be with the Lord. The father didn’t lose anything. Both are alive and well, and together.
At best, we can say that he watched his son suffer; but in the perspective of eternity, 33 years of life and a few days of suffering is nothing when you’re a god. Besides, if Jesus is God, then both knew the plan all along, and it was more of a planned temporary displacement, not a sacrifice at all.
The Father has his son back by his side at this very moment, and everything is back like it started before he was sent to earth, so how can anyone say it was a sacrifice?
96 comments:
How about a soldier that throws himself onto a grenade to save his buddies? If he believes in an afterlife for his soul/spirit, does that mean he made no sacrifice?
Excellent point. But not quite the same.
God and Jesus started out as spirits, and they created a plan that they were both aware of: Jesus was temporarily a man, and went back to his original state after the alleged 'sacrifice' mission was complete.
So to compare apples to apples, we'd have to say that this soldier was human, and then devised a plan to temporarily die as an effort to show his love, and then threw himself on the grenade, died as a spirit for a few days and then returned to being a soldier.
Also, since we're talking about a god here, we'd have to say that your soldier also made that grenade, threw the grenade down, and made it go off, because he would have control over everything that happens, as God did.
In that sense, no -- he didn't sacrifice anything because he knew he wasn't actually losing anything but a little time. He knew he would return to his original state after the incident, and he came specifically for the purpose of carrying out a plan that he created in the first place.
At that point, it's more of a magic show than a sacrifice.
Not that I believe it but I would think knowing about the torture and suffering that you are about to endure is far worse than not knowing in advance. We all know pain and torture hurts but we also know if we die the pain will end. Doesn't make the pain and torture an easy thing to endure. For those that believe in an afterlife they might find a little relief, but the suffering is still real. He was in a human body, he could of lived to be 500 years old, had untold numbers of women and copious amounts of children, performing miracles everywhere to become a rock star of the land...lol. He did give up a long happy life to be tortured to death at a young age.
I don't really think he did it for us though. I think Jesus was an animal rights activist and he did it to put an end to animal sacrifice. God sacrificed himself so we would not have to burn up baby lambs for our sins anymore.
Here is another story of sacrifice that I can gaurantee you wont hear in church.
Judges 11:29-40
The Spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah...
Jephthah vowed a vow to the Lord and said, If thou wilt surely deliver the children of Ammon into my hands. Then whosoever comes forth of the door of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the children of Ammon shall be the Lords and I will offer him up for a burnt offering....
The children of Ammon were defeated.
Then Jephthah came to his house and BEHOLD his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and dances. She was his only child....
When he saw her he rent his clothes...
He told her I have made a promise to God and I cannot go back on it.
She said My father, if you have made a promise to God do to me according to that which proceeded out of your mouth.
She asked for one wish... to go to mountains with her friends for 2 months to cry about her virginity. He granted her last wish.
Then she returned (Yeah she returned!!!!) to her father, who did with her according to his vow (Yep, burned her alive!!!)
I wonder which sacrifice is less painful? Crucifixion or being burned alive?
And it became a custom among the children of Israel, that the daughters of Israel went yearly to weep and lament over the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.
You know whats sad... that she didn't even get a name mention... Isaac got a name.
Burning alive—Burnt offerings—Murdering infants—Animal and Human Sacrifices—Talking Donkey—Burning Bush—Stoning Homosexuals...
Now that sounds like a book we should get our morals from!
Your belief in evolution can't rule out the existence of talking donkeys... you said so yourself.
Its a history book not a book to plan a life around. Sure you can find a lot of good things to inspire you with your daily life, but I sure hope you skip the nasty chapters.
Nope. It's the living, infallible word of our unchanging god of peace, and shall live forever.
If you don't believe in talking donkeys or commandments that were written by Moses after he came down the mountain alone, and then wrote about everyone's amazing response to his return as his own proof of his amazing return, then you're defacing the authority of God!
Take all or nothing buddy. No Bible cherry picking. It's either God's word or it isn't. It's either inspired or it isn't. The donkey either talked or it didn't.
Can I get an Amen?
No Amen from me... I like them to cherry pick... its safer for the rest of us.
Jephthah did clobber the Ammonites, but before going, he does a really dumb thing: Jephthah pledges the sacrifice of whatever comes forth first from his house to greet him after his victory. It wasn't just dumb; it was contrary to God's law! Human sacrifice was strictly forbidden by the Mosaic law (Leviticus 18:21, see notes; Deuteronomy 12:31, see notes); so Jephthah should have known that God’s favor could not be gained in this terrible way. Yet Israel’s neighbors (ironically, especially the Ammonites) sacrificed their children; and this custom might have influenced Jephthah. There is no defense for Jephthah here. I'm guessing he probably expected a servant to emerge first of all, but no...it was his daughter. Those Israelites took their vows to God seriously...well, except those to continue serving Jehovah! Instead of Jephthah's Biblical legacy being the judge who delivered Israel from the attack of the Ammonites, he is most commonly known to us as the man who sacrificed his daughter as a burnt offering. His daughter was pretty understanding though - became a folk heroine with her own annual holiday (verse 40). I would have been looking for a new daddy if I had been her. It should be noted, however, that Jephthah is mentioned as a hero of the faith in Hebrews 11:32 (see notes).
Clarification: God did not commission Jephthah to sacrifice his own daughter. That was his own doing.
You do not think it was a sacrifice to watch your son tortured, battered and beaten when he did nothing wrong>
You are sick.
God surely could have kept Jesus with Him, but sent Him to us, watched him brutely beatened and die of the most horrible death because of non-believers and sinful people.
Yep, you are so incredibly arrogant to thinkg God did not sacrifice. Jesus also sacrificed by coming down form the Heavenleis.
But you worldly non believing persons are not able to comprehend that and never will. I guess you just are special enough to understand
How can you say that I am sick for questioning the sacrifice, but not say that your god is sick for making it all happen?
Again, a sacrifice is to lose something. What did either of them lose? The father has his son by his side right now. There was no sacrifice.
You are not worth my time
Convenient answer. Anyone else want to give up?
You guys claim to have access to the ultimate set of morals, with the writer of those morals at your finger tips in daily conversation. Why are these questions so hard for you?
So, I'm sick for asking what the sacrifice was, but your god who was powerful enough to stop it, sat and watched Jesus suffer and did nothing.
I didn't have the power to stop it, or I would have. Your god not only watched it, but planned it!
And I'm the sick one? Really...
Yes, really you are. I have read several of your posts and topics.
You would have always fixed everything. And what you do not realize, is that we do not live ain a perfect fairytail world.
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Tell us all how you can prove with facts, beyond a shadow of a doubt, God does not exist?
FACTS only, not your opinions or would haves
That is one thing you will never be able to prove.
You can't prove Allah doesn't exist. You can't prove Krishna doesn't exist. You can't prove Zeus doesn't exist. You can't even prove leprechauns and unicorns don't exist.
I'm not tasked with disproving anything, just as you're not tasked with disproving those myths.
You're the one that has claimed to know the creator of the entire universe, yet have no proof for that claim. The only book you do have is full of contradictions and murderous rampages of this monster your call god; killing infants and demanding that people sacrifice animals to him! He condones slavery, and watches babies slaughters by the thousands at his command.
I don't have to prove anything. The fact that people are raped, and children are starving, earthquakes kill hundreds of thousands of people, and hurricanes wipe out entire cities, is proof enough that nothing is "watching over us" that's both ALL GOOD and ALL POWERFUL.
You are the one that has the claim to KNOW this thing very intimately, so YOU PROVE it exists.
The atheist simply says "none of you have sufficient proof." And you don't. Yet you want to rule the world with your "Holy Book" that's full of nonsense like talking donkeys and snakes. So if you want me to follow it, I will... but first you need to prove we can trust it.
is proof enough that nothing is "watching over us" that's both ALL GOOD and ALL POWERFUL.
HOW IS THE PROOF? It's not.
TRUST IS SOMETHING YOU CHOOSE TO DO.
Faith is its best friend.
I will let God prove and He will in His timing.
Your arrogance and hostility will be broken one day soon. May you keeo your eyes focused on Israel and you will soon learn when Jesus will return. Simple as that.
that's full of nonsense like talking donkeys
Perhaps a fool shoul look in the mirror.
And you want to rule this world with your nonsense as well
I don't wish to rule anything, I only want to prevent nonsense from ruling. There's a difference.
And the Muslims feel sorry for you, for worshiping a false god in Jesus. They have no more proof than you do. The Hindus feel sorry for both Christians and Muslims, and honestly believe that each of you will bow to Krishna in the end, just as confident as you are that all of us will bow to Jesus.
It's all the same. Religions are like languages, with rituals, early origins in ignorance, all saying the same things and claiming to have the truth.
You're all just wishful, none of you can prove a thing, yet you want power.
Yikes, looks like someone hit a nerve.
As the resident non christian who still believes in a form of god I will defend the jesus story a bit.
He did make a sacrifice. Just because there was a light at the end of the tunnel doesn't mean he didn't pay a price of suffering and blood.
Just like the young soldier, who gives up many of his young years, that could have been spent partying, going to college, hanging out with friends and family, sleeping in a comfy bed and all the other privileges that come with living in this country, he chose to give all that up for a time, and risk his life, risk his health, suffer and maybe bleed for years. He did sacrifice even though he knew he would go home eventually.
The simple fact that he did not have to suffer and chose to anyway because he believed he needed to save others is a sacrifice no matter if you know the outcome.
I believe the story of jesus is a good one and one to pay attention to, and learn from. The teachings of jesus are good as well, and in his mind he believed he was suffering to help others and that is always a good lesson.
I don't believe Jesus is God but jesus was a man who had a connection with God, but also was a victim to his surroundings and his earthly body as we all are. The beliefs and customs of the time had an affect on the writings in the bible.
We live with what we know, we know alot more these days. Like the fact that its only the women in the bible who are ever sterile... never the men... we know better now, we live differently now.
Jesus was a good man who tried to change the minds of some people for the better of society and he did do that.
Now the bible should not be viewed as Gods word, but as a history lesson, and as a reason not to repeat the mistakes and injustices of the past. But a book to learn from nonetheless.
Most christians today look to their bibles for just that right kind of guidance to help them live productive, happy fulfilled lives and to help them make good decisions. The bible is filled with great lessons that people today can learn a lot of good things from.
Mostly they are leaving the past mistakes and horrific tales of the bible on the wayside.
Sure there are a few more things that they still hold onto that should be left by the wayside, but for the most part christians have good hearts and try to live good lives just like anybody else. If they need guidance so what, everyone does.
It is an exageration to say christians today follow any of those nasty things that are in the bible. They are not getting their morals or ethics from the burnt offerings, animal sacrifice, child killing, rapes or the slavery that is in the bible.
Ay-yay-yay! Where to begin? I could start with: no one has ever proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that jesus (deliberate non-capitalization) ever existed. But I'll plunge right into the heart of it instead.
Did god sacrifice?
In a nutshell: this god entity set man up to fail, cursed him when he did fail, and then demanded burnt offerings as atonement. This god, ostensibly with the foresight to see all decisions that ever would be made, could see where it was going and that eventually he would have to send down his son (after a Zeus-cum-swan kinda night with Mary).
He could have cut it all off at the pass by not requiring burnt offerings for the remission of sins when he created the universe -- 6,000 years ago or some such. :) (My math is fuzzy - would you check it for me? I may have missed a few zeroes...)
While we're at it: this god entity could have had jesus's future atonement cover for the people who lived in Noah's time and could have chosen not to drown them all in a flood. Ditto for the harsh sentence(s) meted out for Jezebel, Absalom, the children who made fun of Elisha, and Sodom and Gomorrah. I'm sure I'm missing untold thousands of dead and maimed, but I don't own a bible anymore and am having to go on memory.
Did god really sacrifice? No. Not actually, not physically, not theoretically, not rhetorically.
And even if he did, why should I be thankful for a series of misguided decisions and events which happened before my time? I'm sick of paying the wages of sin. I'm broke!
When we ask a question such as this, we must be careful that we are not calling God into question. To wonder why God couldn’t find “another way” to do something is to imply that the way He has chosen is not the best course of action and that some other method would be better. Usually what we perceive as a “better” method is one that seems right to us. Before we can come to grips with anything God does, we have to first acknowledge that His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts—they are higher than ours (Isaiah 55:8). In addition, Deuteronomy 32:4 reminds us that “He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.” Therefore, the plan of salvation He has designed is perfect, just, and upright, and no one could have come up with anything better.
The Scripture says, “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures” (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). Evidence affirms that the sinless Jesus bled and died on a cross. Most importantly, the Bible explains why Jesus’ death and resurrection provide the only entrance to heaven.
The punishment for sin is death.
God created earth and man perfect. But when Adam and Eve disobeyed God’s commands, He had to punish them. A judge who pardons law-breakers isn’t a righteous judge. Likewise, overlooking sin would make the holy God unjust. Death is God’s just consequence for sin. “For the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). Even good works cannot make up for wrongs against the holy God. Compared to His goodness, “All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6b). Ever since Adam’s sin, every human has been guilty of disobeying God’s righteous laws. “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Sin is not just big things like murder or blasphemy, but also includes love of money, hatred of enemies, and deceit of tongue and pride. Because of sin, everyone has deserved death – eternal separation from God in hell.
The promise required an innocent death.
Although God banished Adam and Eve from the garden, He didn’t leave them without hope of heaven. He promised He would send a sinless Sacrifice to take the punishment they deserved (Genesis 3:15). Until then, men would sacrifice innocent lambs, showing their repentance from sin and faith in the future Sacrifice from God who would bear their penalty. God reaffirmed His promise of the Sacrifice with men such as Abraham and Moses. Herein lies the beauty of God’s perfect plan: God Himself provided the only sacrifice (Jesus) who could atone for the sins of His people. God’s perfect Son fulfilled God’s perfect requirement of God’s perfect law. It is perfectly brilliant in its simplicity. “God made Him (Christ), who knew no sin, to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).
The prophets foretold Jesus’ death.
From Adam to Jesus, God sent prophets to mankind, warning them of sin’s punishment and foretelling the coming Messiah. One prophet, Isaiah, described Him:
“Who has believed what they heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors” (Isaiah 53:1-12). He likened the coming Sacrifice to a lamb, slaughtered for the sins of others.
Hundreds of years later, Isaiah’s prophecy was fulfilled in the perfect Lord Jesus, born of the virgin Mary. When the prophet John the Baptist saw Him, he cried, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29). Crowds thronged Him for healing and teaching, but the religious leaders scorned Him. Mobs cried out, “Crucify Him!” Soldiers beat, mocked, and crucified Him. As Isaiah foretold, Jesus was crucified in between two criminals but was buried in a rich man’s tomb. But He didn’t remain in the grave. Because God accepted His Lamb’s sacrifice, He fulfilled another prophecy by raising Jesus from the dead (Psalm 16:10; Isaiah 26:19).
Why did Jesus have to die? Remember, the holy God cannot let sin go unpunished. To bear our own sins would be to suffer God’s judgment in the flames of hell. Praise God, He kept His promise to send and sacrifice the perfect Lamb to bear the sins of those who trust in Him. Jesus had to die because He is the only one who can pay the penalty for our sins.
If God is showing you your need for the Lamb of God, find out how His sacrificial death can take away your sins - click here!
Recommended Resource: Jesus: The Greatest Life of All by Charles Swindoll.
Perhaps you would like to debate with Charles Swindoll one day or John McArthur. I would like to be there when that happens.
I would love to, and welcome such an invitation.
"Why did Jesus have to die?"
He didn't.
"Remember, the holy God cannot let sin go unpunished."
Yes he can.
"To bear our own sins would be to suffer God’s judgment in the flames of hell."
Wrong again.
"Jesus had to die because He is the only one who can pay the penalty for our sins."
Yikes, I don't even want to know what you've done to deserve the death and torture of another human being.
When I loose my car keys I'm not sacrificing them. Jesus died, that was the sacrifice. Rejecting that isn't a slap in anyone's face. Each person's consequences are a result of their own decisions.
There is a whole spectrum of belief that exists between Calvinism and Deism. You loose credibility with me when you imply that Christians are fatalistic that God makes grenades.
I know that your are attacked will all sorts of idiocy, but when you react against all theists with condescending remarks you diminish the chance of influencing people in the middle. Even if you are right you will loose.
Oh well, he already lost so he has nothing to lose.
Smalley - Please send an invite to Charles Swindoll for a debate, post the date, time and location here and we will be there.
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Else I will just wait for the next date for the circus to come to town.
Ok, since everything God has done is wrong in your eyes and mind, exactly what should have happened to all the evil doers in this world?
Past evil doers?
Present evil doers?
Future evil doers?
This includes liars, thiefs, cheats, murderers, adulteres, blaspehmers, etc?
"This includes liars, thiefs, cheats, murderers, adulteres, blaspehmers, etc?"
I have lied... lying is not always bad.
I would steal to feed my family or the starving. And I shoplifted once as a child.
I have cheated... there is no good excuse for that...lol
I have murdered animals and bugs.
I have never commited adultery.
I have been called a blasphemer as well by christians.
I am not going to hell... it doesn't exist.
I have a close personal relationship with the greater if you want to call it God thats fine.
I am an evil doer, by your definition.
What has happened to the evil doers of this world? Nothing that we as humans haven't doled out to them. God has not punished a single one.
And according to your bible the only sin that would send a person to hell is not believing in the christian god and not asking for forgiveness. So according to your bible all the evil doers of the world who believe in Jesus will still be your neighbors in heaven...lol. See you there.
Mr Smalley:
Are you sure you are an atheist?
Why would an atheist even make this argument?
Like Christopher Hitchens would say, "I would classify that under the heading of “statements that have no meaning—at all.”
I'm pretty sure I'm atheist... let me check.
Yep. I'm atheist.
The beautiful thing about atheists is we don't follow on particular atheistic way of thinking or speaking. Christopher Hitchens is not my god, patriarch or pope. He's a writer whom I respect.
That doesn't mean for the sake of debate that I won't occasionally 'speak-Christian' to get the opinions of others.
I agree that it doesn't actually 'mean' anything--but it's the conversation I'm interested in, not grades by Mr. Hitchens on my atheist speech.
I was raised baptist and always knew that baptism was a public statement that you have
accepted Christ, not anything that would send you to heaven.
My pastor used to always say the LA water system is not going to send you to heaven...lol.
Jason here, u commented on what I had to say on Barry Creamer show the past week. But I just wanted to ask u a serious question. Since u believe there is no God, I was just wondering, when u die, (I mean u do believe u are going to die on this earth 1 day right?), where or what are u looking forward to happening to ur soul? Like what are u going to do with yourself if you don't confess ur sins to Jesus and repent, what are u going to do with ur soul since u believe there is no God, what are u going to do with ur own soul? I would like to have ur response on tis 1. Thanks and to God be the Blessing
Do atheists have souls?
Or do atheists believe they even have souls is a better question?
If an atheist doesn't believe they have a soul then they have no concern for what will happen to it when they die.
As an Atheist, who decides what is right and what is wrong?
Who set those standards?
Is it so hard to decide what is right and wrong for yourself? I mean really? Do you need a book to tell you what is good and what is bad. If you never knew of the bible would you be a bad person? No.
Most people are innately good people and they didn't get it from reading a book. It comes from within.
Well how do you know if it is good or bad?
Who was your teacher?
Who taught them?
And so on.
What if a murderer was never taught murder was wrong?
Waht if that was acceptable where he grew up and was never taught any different?
"Well how do you know if it is good or bad?"
We think, we feel, we love, we hate, we learn. This is true no matter where you live, no matter where you were raised, no matter what religion you believe in, no matter if you have even touched a bible in your life.
"Who was your teacher?"
You don't really need one, but we are taught by parents, peers, and experiences.
"Who taught them?"
Their parents, peers and experiences.
"What if a murderer was never taught murder was wrong?"
Murderers are taught that murder is wrong yet they still murder...lol. It comes from within.
"Waht if that was acceptable where he grew up and was never taught any different?"
Is that acceptable anywhere on this planet?
Except for those that believe they are defending country or family or tribe? Why is it that most humans, no matter what their beliefs, even if they grew up in the jungles in the middle of nothing still know murder is not right? It comes from within us as human beings. Not from the bible.
"WHAT" comes from within?
We think, we feel, we love, we hate, we learn.
How do you know this/
Where did this thinking come from, where do your feelings come from, how do you know how to love and where did you learn about loving and hating
Who in your world determines what love and hate is?
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WHAT COMES FROM WITHIN as human beings?
You keep saying IT comes from within?
Comes from within WHAT?
WHAT IS "IT"?
Who determines what love is?
""WHAT" comes from within?"
Knowledge of right and wrong, that was your question. Knowledge of love and hate. Innate ability to know what is good for you and those around you.
"How do you know this/
Where did this thinking come from, where do your feelings come from, how do you know how to love and where did you learn about loving and hating"
They didn't have to come from anywhere, they just are, love and hate just is, it doesn't have to be learned. It just is. It doesn't have an origin or a beginning or be given to us by anyone.
"Who in your world determines what love and hate is?"
Why does someone have to determine what it is? The question makes no sense to me. It just is.
"Who determines what love is?"
No one, it just is.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100330/ap_on_sc/eu_big_bang_machine
From within?...Within is located where and within is WHAT?
to know?.....How do you know?
They just are?....Who is THEY?
IT just is?...What IT?
LOVE JUST IS?.....How do you know IT is LOVE?
What or who determines what love is?
Hey Keep IT Simple....How are ya?
Keep it simple said...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100330/ap_on_sc/eu_big_bang_machine
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BIG BANG even agrees on the LIGHT SOURCE issue as explained in the bible when God created light.
Everyone,
I will try to sum this up as briefly as possible:
Jason--there is no soul. The word 'spirit' originated from the Latin 'spiritus' which simply means 'breath.' When a person died, their 'spiritus' left them, (they stopped breathing) which was later converted to spirit and/or soul.
It was the primitive person's way of explaining death without an understanding of brain waves and heart palpitations. This is why when one sneezed they said "Bless you," because the 'spiritus' left the body and was often visible in an outburst. I am not worried at all about my soul, and I've often thought of selling it on ebay if you're interested in converting it.
Anonymous--the answer for all your questions on where love comes from, how do we share happiness, "what's it?" "where did IT come from?" is simply natural selection and the fact of evolution.
Compassion, rational discourse, and doing less harm to others due to mirror neurons in the brain which develop an understanding of another individual's pain, area all the reasons we care.
Take a look at any indigenous tribe that lives in the woods. They treat each other with respect, care for their young, build huts together, hunt together, and try to cure each others diseases--yet they have NO CONCEPT of Jesus, Yahweh, demons, angels, or heaven. They have no 10 commandments. They are living proof of an ethical system without gods. In fact, most of them are "animatists," believing that spirits of their dead ancestors become implanted in inanimate objects throughout the village, and become worshiped as gods.
Just because one can't tell you exactly where THEIR actual love or desire to help comes from, it only means they don't fully understand their own biology and psychology. It certainly doesn't automatically mean the Christian god is the only correct one! You need far more evidence than that--especially when billions of people on earth live perfectly fine without the assumption that your god is real.
As for Dr. Wooddell's on air remarks about this headline question, he said that by posing it this way, I am proving the problem of evil for the Christian argument--by saying that heaven is so wonderful that pain on earth shouldn't matter.
It's a classic spin move that these guys are good at, which I plan to tell Dr. Wooddell when we meet for coffee soon, but he simply avoided the question.
My wording of the question is not assuming the reality of the claims, but rather challenging the Christian belief system to show INTERNAL fallacies. I can't show those from the outside, so I must step inside the Christian vocabulary to point them out.
We have always heard that "God sacrificed his son." But that just doesn't make sense, because his son (in the Christian belief) is right there with him! Instead of thinking about how inconsistent that is, you want to jump to another argument and say "See! You proved us right over here on this other thing!" That's a cop-out. I'm addressing the alleged sacrifice, let's deal with one at a time and not jump ship when we don't have an answer.
The other avoidance answer is to say "well, he suffered, and that was sacrifice enough." But it's not posed as a "temporary suffering" for our sins, it's posed as a "sacrificial lamb" of our sins. Has any lamb's sacrifice ever been temporary? No. They're all still dead--but according to Christianity, Jesus isn't.
That's inconsistent with sacrifice. Why won't someone at least admit that?
"They're all still dead--but according to Christianity, Jesus isn't."
AMEN.....And how is that David?....By the power of God and the very meaning of Easter thus Sunday.
Jesus overcame the grave unlike other sheep. It is a symbolism of the animal and sheep. In the OT sheep were sacrificed to pardon sins..
Jesus was sacrificed by being sent to this world, leaving his throne for HOW MANY YEARS, spit upon, blasphemed and tortured - that is sacrifice as God watch his son die. Using the sybolism of sheep is just that and symbolism that parallels the sacrificial lambs in the OT.
That is the glory of the Risen King, He conquered and overcam the grace like no one else did. You might say others were resurrected, but you have to stop there..Jesus resurrected them. This is so much different...God resurrected Jesus.
Just like me...My death will not be eternal. I too will be resurrected by God and live happily ever after with Him by His throne. So thanks for proving our Bible to be correct. Remember I am made in His image and will reign on high with Him. So yes, my suffering here in this world is worth it. I have learned so much and I totally have Faith in the Invisible God that I will be with Him and overcome death. And that is so amazing.
AMEN ...Great Job !!
David
Without Faith, you will never understand it. That is your problem. This is something that is just way above your IQ and finite mind.
Faith is a gift from God, and after that it is committment from us to Him. It's a beautiful thing.
All I can say is that God is teaching me through your blog site right now who He is. I take your questions, I ponder, I pray and all teh sudden no matter where I turn, I hear God speaking through others telling me who He really is.....But David, you will never be able to comprehend that as you have no faith in anything or anyone.
TYPO ALERT
That is the glory of the Risen King, He conquered and overcam the grace like no one else did.
SHOULD READ HE CONQUERED AND OVERCAME THE GRAVE
And sure it is only a temporary thing...My life here on this earth is temporary. Jesus's life was temporary. Everyone's is temporary.
But the resurrection of Jesus Christ to eterinty with God is what God promies to those who have faith in Jesus Christ. Kinda like a neverending circle of effects. It's a marriage and a wedding band.
Colossians 1:14-15
(King James Version)
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Okay, now you're insulting my IQ, as if I'm "too stupid" to understand your belief, or somehow not on your level of intelligence to understand faith. That's fine--the gloves are off, Denese.
You're only making excuses for this ancient non-scientific book because you're afraid to die, you're not explaning it to be true. You're only showing us your internal struggles and insecurities that make you turn to a "Daddy in the sky" that you HOPE is there to solve your pathetic human problems that you don't want responsibility for. That takes no intelligence. That takes cowardliness to run from your issues and put them in "God's hands" or let "Jesus take the wheel."
In fact, it takes a strong LACK of knowledge of the world around you, science, biology, and other religions, to accept these myths as true. If you truly studied them, you would seem them all for what they are.
You're making excuses for things you don't understand by using the "god of the gaps" theory. (If we don't know it, it must be magic) as if you were a child trying to make sense of an adult removing their own thumb right in front of you. That takes no intelligence. It takes faith in a lack of what you understand.
As for your contradictory Bible, you're only using chapters 3 and 4 to explain why chapter 10 is the truth! CIRCULAR REASONING. Besides even the new gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John) don't even agree on major topics of Christ! Why don't you challenge those?
"Well, because if it's in the Bible, it must be true!" How do you know? "Duh! It's in the BIBLE!" You can't use X to prove X, and "because I said so" hasn't been a valid reason since we were 10. To accept that as proof does not take intelligence, but fear.
Logic doesn't work that way. Science doesn't work that way. Every other thing you've ever learned did not come by way of reasoning around faith, hope, and prayer. You obtained it by KNOWLEDGE through a scientific process or otherwise reliable belief-forming process--but this is different. There is no emprirical evidence for your god, there is nothing to study scientifically with an IQ, you just have faith, hope, and fear. Instead of leaving it alone at that, and saying that you have faith and I don't, you go a step further and say I' m not smart enough to believe, or that faith is "above" my IQ.
To insult me by saying I have too low of an IQ to understand faith is just ridiculous. Faith is the ABSENCE of EVIDENCE. It's an ASSUMPTION. It doesn't require any IQ or intelligence at all to make a claim without proof.
In fact, quite the opposite is true from your statement. My IQ is too high to buy this myth as fact, and you don't know enough about the world, biology, psychology, or other religions to even know what questions to ask or how to ask them to see if these Christian apologists are even telling you the truth.
An atheist is not one that knows too little about religion, but is often one that knows too much about too many of them.
No I am not insulting your IQ. Its a generaic statement to OUR finite minds...
Who said I was affraid to die. Im not affraid. Its gonna happen on day, which I have absolutely no control over.
What issues do I not face on a daily basis that I run from? Ive been through alot of crap in my life that I hit head on and overcame. Im not scared to face crap in this world...Heck I face it every day. Throw me a curve ball and I will drive it to right field for ya. Throw me a fast ball, Ill hit a line drive or lay down a bunt. Throw me a jab to the guy and Ill come back with a left hook.
But scared to take on my problems..NOPE not at all. You can investigate my life and you will see how I have overcome. But no, not by myself.
WHAT SCIENTIFIC PROCESS DAVID? SHOW ME how it all got started and what or who started it...YOU CANT.
No you are not committed enough to have faith. You cannot understand that which you do not believe in.
Heck David you make a claim wihtout proof every day of your atheistic life. You have not proof or evidence. You have faith in your beleifs without proof or evidence dear.
An atheist is a self reliant maker of his own world and regulation - self promoted god.
Wrong again. The scientific evidence is there because your god is not empirical.
Your god fails just like Leprechauns, Unicorns, and Pink Elephants. We don't believe in them, yet they are just as noticeable as your god.
They all fail science equally, so none should receive special treatment.
The evidence we have for atheism is the lack that all of those that claim to have gods, does not have sufficient proof. You see, my evidence is the lack of yours.
1ST LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS
Conservation of Energy Law
.........If science is all there is and there is no God, then the 1st Law of Thermodynamics reigns supreme and therefore it would be impossible to have matter and energy in existence right now. right?
so, when you open your eyes and see matter and experience energy, what you see is impossible according to the known Laws of science if, in fact, there is no God. Therefore, science itself says there must be a God.
Matter/energy can not come into existence. It is scientifically impossible, yet here we see everything around us, so how can that be?
So how can it be that we see everything around us if matter/energy cannot come into existence. Appears scientifically impossible????
Lets examine our options here
Option A: Everything came into existence by itself anyway, without the help of God, (even though science has proven that impossible).
Option B: Everything in the universe has always existed for all of eternity
Options C - There must be a God, a Being greater than science, who created the Laws of science and has the ability to disobey them. Not only is a belief in God the only logical conclusion to draw, it's the only one scientifically possible because remember, if there is no God, the first two options are scientifically impossible according to the actual Laws of Physics
I more notes in my binder .....
Do you ever read anything besides Christian apologetic books? This is the same rhetoric that people spew in debates that is disproven every day. It's very outdated, and very over used.
Read the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, and then let's have a discussion. When you say things like "Option A: Everything came into existence by itself anyway, without the help of God, (even though science has proven that impossible)." You make me not even want to talk to you. That's just ridiculous.
First law of thermodynamics
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
The first law of thermodynamics, an expression of the principle of conservation of energy, states that energy can be transformed (changed from one form to another), but cannot be created or destroyed.
“ The increase in the internal energy of a system is equal to the amount of energy added by heating the system minus the amount lost as a result of the work done by the system on its surroundings.
Uh....If I am correct the 1st Law of Thermodynamcis is from s science book.
please correct me if I am wrong.
I do know how to read and I even went to school. And it is only blonde dye David.
And yes agree that option A is ridiculous...Thanks
Wow, I'm just about to give up on you. Seriously.
Wikipedia is not, in any sense, considered a reliable source of anything. If you've ever gone to college, you would know that it's not counted as a credible source, and cannot be cited in papers. Please read actual academic material from BOTH sides as I have.
Don't just read, and then copy and paste from Wiki and Christian web-sites that prove your point. That's intellectually dishonest.
I will send you Dawkin's book on audio if you don't like to read. But you've got to look into something besides what your preacher tells you.
You just come off as a parrot for the arguments other people make, and it's obvious that you don't really know what you're talking about, and haven't taken the time to view the other side of the coin. You don't check to see if your answer is correct, you just spew it because others have spewed it. Please be honest with yourself and actually look for REAL answers. Not just the ones that agree with you.
Now I fully expect you to copy and paste something else here... the only question is: will it be a Bible verse, or nonsense from an apologetic's web site.
How about this... I will send you an audio copy of The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, and after listening to it, you can write a review of it, proving all of it's fallacies and inaccuracies, and I will publish your writing on my blog. If it's good enough, I'll even publish it in the national magazine of which I am the editor.
You have my word. Deal?
Neither David...Wiki was just a copy of the meaning...Thats all.
Yes, I read alot. I study. I learn. I read science materials and books. I read on the web. I can even read a dictionary.
Trust me I have found alot of answer that dont agree with my finite mind. Those answers are better. I dont just listen to my pastor either.
You can call him yourself and ask Him. My pastor will tell you himself to test everything and not to just simply take a mans word at it.
So I give you one source from a science book and you down play that. Why is that?
I do know how to research science and compare to what the Bible says. And I research the BIble and compare it to science.
And science has proven there has to be a CREATOR.
But obviously now you even disagree with your own scientific laws I posted above.
WOW
Sure...Right after you read and comment on Evidence That Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell.
Seems fair.
PS...i even aced debate class.
Well, I've already read:
Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis,
The Problem of Pain by C.S. Lewis,
The Case for the Real Jesus by Lee Strobel
The Holy Bible by 40 different authors
Bible Contradictions Explained by George DeHoff
The Bible Handbook by W.P. Ball
Atheism Advanced by Dr. David Eller
The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine
God is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens
The Greatest Show on Earth by Richard Dawkins
The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins
and countless books on psychology, philosophy, cognition, ethics, world religions, counseling, and behavioral studies through my psychology degree.
I've written my own book on the topic of Christianity and my personal journey through skepticism, in addition to 13 nationally published articles and multiple live radio interviews and debates, including over 100 blogs on the same topic--but sure! One more won't hurt.
Deal.
"That's inconsistent with sacrifice. Why won't someone at least admit that?"
I'm not a christian, and I can see the sacrifice in the story. Its plain as day to me, even though I don't believe in the story. So if I can see the sacrifice I don't think you are going to get actual christians to admit anything.
"faith is "above" my IQ."
No, faith is above your ability. You will never be able to take away the faith of those who are able. I see you try, but I see you also solidifying their faith in christianity even more. The interviews you do on the radio are being used by the hosts to answer the doubts and questions that some christians might be holding right now.
As someone who has defended both sides of the arguments here, because frankly its not always a fair fight...lol, I have some questions for you David.
I wonder why do you think it is that even those indigenous tribes in the jungles somehow know there is a spirit that leaves the body and exists elsewhere. Why do you think it is that the majority of the world, no matter what faith, religion, culture or nationality all somehow know there is something more out there, no matter what they think it is, they all know there is something.
Do you think the entire world is delusional, and only you and your minority group really know the truth?
If you do think the whole world is delusional, how do you think that happended?
Do you think its possible that most of the world is built with an antenna so to speak that can tune in to whatever it is that they believe is greater than them? And do you believe that its possible for science to find this antenna?
For you Denese
Debunking 'The God Delusion,' Part 1
In this six-part series, Deepak Chopra exposes what he considers the illusion of Richard Dawkins' book 'The God Delusion.'
http://www.beliefnet.com/Holistic-Living/2007/02/Debunking-The-God-Delusion-Part-1.aspx
Deepak Chopra .....Oh please not him. I dont waste time on junk, new age movement stuff
Thanks Not a Christian for your replies....
Denese
Not a Christian:
WOW...." No, faith is above your ability."...
That is very well said and I just learned something....Thanks again ;-)
But I really do not care for Deepak
Ok wait !!! -- Deepak is not who I was thinking He was.....Ill go read ....Im on belief net alot.
ill check it out and get back with ya
But you waste your time on atheist stuff? Interesting...lol
Ok now that was very interesting....Ill have to keep reading and researching....WOW....Thanks for sharing
-
But David probably doesnt think Deepak is all that educated either.
Not a Christian said...
But you waste your time on atheist stuff? Interesting...lol....."
-
Ok that was good I have to say. But read my note just above yours....I was thinking of someone else....And I cannot remember his name, but he resides in Utah....UGH....
HAPPY RESURRECTION WEEKEND...
.........ON THE 3RD DAY HE AROSE.
No he didn't. But I enjoyed the day off.
This is foolish David... Bill Gates has millions of dollars. If he were to give 1 million to charity (which is really pocket change for him), should the charity program then be upset and say, "You call that a sacrfice? You have way more to give than that Bill." No!! That would be a terrible thing to say. See to Bill it probably means nothing, but the charity is utterly grateful for such a gift. My point is regardless of your idea of how God viewed punishing his own Son (which isn't correct to begin with) it would be foolish and greatly selfish to state that the act of paying for our sins was simply nothing to us. To say the giver (God) didn't sacrifice anything (in our eyes) would be the same to jusge Bill Gates for not giving more to the charity. By the way, Jesus called, he said he wants you to come back...
Let's put it this way if one day the king decides to sell his only son as a slave for a day, to the "enemy", so that he can have enough money to buy food for his whole kingdom. Would you consider that a sacrifice?
No parent can watch their child suffer and not feel the same pain they do(some parents feel worse). You can have something happen to you and still have scars for the rest of your life.
Lindsey
Lindsey,
Your posts are always well thought out, and well-put. Thanks for stopping by to offer your insight.
To your point, I suppose I would have to consider that situation a temporary sacrifice - as I stated in the original post - but it's not as powerful as people try to make it seem when they emotionally say "He sacrificed his only son for you!"
He didn't. He still has his son today in your belief system. So yes, he witnessed suffering, but he has his son.
Also, if you're going to humanize this process for an analogy, you'll also have to give the fictional King the power to snap his fingers and create food for the village. The sacrifice wouldn't be necessary if the King was as magic as you believe your god is.
Remember, in the Christian belief, all things are controlled by Yahweh, and he knows the future. This means, as he was creating the world, he knew Jesus would be suffering in a few thousand years, based on his own rules. He could have changed them, altered the future, and brought about the lesson in another way.
Besides, Jesus isn't really Yahweh's son. He is the human form of Yahweh. So, in short, your god created the world, created the people, created the rules, created the temptation to break those rules, and then sacrificed himself back to himself because his creation didn't follow his rules... all of which he knew was coming thousands of years before it did.
None of this makes sense.
first, thank you. I really like these kinds of debates they bring out a differt view of Christianity.
The fact is He didn't have to do it to his Son, the "perfect lamb", but he choose to because He loved us. He didn't have to watch his son go through the pain, but he choose to. I guess that it wasn't perminante but it didn't have to happen in the first place. Why would He do that for the people that betray Him everyday?
There are a few things that can somewhat explain the reasoning. First, God has 2 plans, he has the plan he wants us to follow and the plan he knows we will follow. He still has hope for you to follow his plan and not the one that you will take, again it sounds stupid but think about it. I see your a dad from your posts, you know your kid is going to make mistakes, but you have hope that they wont.
The reason there is a punishment for sin is so that there can be freewill. I know that sounds crazy but God wants you to go to Him, He doesn't want to force you.So he gives us the oppertunity to sin, so that we can choose to do the right thing.
Since He did create the world like this, the people had to sacrifice, normally animals or crops to take away their sins. So when Jesus came He came as the "great sacrifice", so we wouldn't have to anymore. God couldn't just "snap his fingers" and take away peoples sin.
They way I like to explain the Trinity is that it is like a chair. Do we call it wood, screws and metal, or do we just call it a chair. It has mulitble peices but together they make one thing(a chair or God). So Jesus is the Father's son, but they, with the Holy Spirit, make God.
Lindsey
Lindsey & Densee you guys are fabulous. David would you sacrifce your ONLY child for all the people in the world even the ones who HATED, didnt believe in you just for them to have better lives? Since your an antheist probably not. Not insulting you, or your point of view, (please remember that) nor your intellegence for that is NOT a way of a christian. Also since you arent fully comprehending the whole scarifice issue I am willing to break it down as simple as possible.Before I start what did you say a scariice was (your exact words)loses something to gain somthing Greater am I correct? 1.) GOD gave his ONLY son so we (everybody including you) would have a chance in heaven even if you want to go or not (free will).This was his loss. 2.)His gain JESUS (HIS ONLY SON) plus all of us sinners can join him in Heaven. That is plain as day if you dont understand than maybe just maybe your over educated which can cause confusion of one's own mind! Ever heard of that probably not but dont get offended please just ask more questions. And contact immediately a person who is a member of the church of chirst no question will be left unanswered.
Also if GOD was to to stop his son getting beatend and tortured then it wouldnt of been a scarifce!! I also am a Biology major and a christian yet Im not confused! You guys dont even need research to state the obivous science cannot exist without god! Period point blank thats why science can never be fully correct ever with out God intervening somewhere #think a bout it.
Sooo, how come god did not say to Jepthah that it is wrong to sacrifice his own daughter...Or any living thing for that matter? Doesn't this god know everything and is in cotrol of everything? Doesn't this god have a plan and his will be done? He took the time to tell people how not to cut their hair and what types of fabrics not to wear...How hard would it have been to say,"Don't kill my creations." LOL, at his daughter was pretty understanding of it. You are sooo messed up in your thinking. Females were taught they were nothing but property of men, their Fathers and then their husbands. Brainwashing. If I were told by a god that he wants to torture and have his son sacrificed for me I would say,"No thanks, I will take responsibility for my own mistakes and actions. You sick, bloodthirty asshole!" The bible says that this psycho god loves the sweet smell of burning flesh. Disgusting that anyone could believe for even a second that there is context in which this kind of thing is good.
And the threats, they always come. And we are the evil one's?
"science cannot exist without god"
i believe you you are referring to your god, not mine.
Dear God believers,
Please pray to your God and part the atlantic ocean from New York to London for a month. We will all fly at our own expense to see for ourselves. I guarantee you, all atheists, buddhists and so on will become Christians on the spot.
I know this sort of miracle, though it was said to have happened once, will never ever happen again because we now have internet and high def cameras.
I propose an easier miracle. Please rid all weapons of mass and all destructions. Can you rid of all the greeds in the western nations. These are all human made.
I like to hear your response. Is this too much to ask?
By the way, Donald Rumsfeld stated that on Sep 10, 2001 that 2.3 TRILLION$$$ were missing. There is no investigation, just swept under the pentagon carpet. Let's start from here - where was it spent. It is linked to "God".
Why does an all knowing omnipotent god need to device such a heinous act like sacrificing his only son to show his love for his enemies. Wouldn't humility work better, example Ghandi and Martin Luther King. Jesus was reportedly missing from age 12 to 30 traveled to India. Love thy enemy and turn your cheek are well known Eastern proverbs. Using Occam's razor, it is more than anything else that Jesus taught his followers what he had learnt and gained many more followers. The elites didn't like this and conspired his execution. To quell the blowback of his crucifixion, hence you have the god with all the stupidest excuses for his heinous acts. Substitute god with these elites doing heinous acts. Open your eyes and you will see more stupidest excuses their acts. Jesus actually survived. The resurrection just suit the elites better.
The god and what you believe in is your business and if it makes you happy, I am all for it AS LONG AS this does not entail someone or many losing their basic needs like food, shelter, warm and future.
Why cant God the Father forgive us on his own? Why is it impossible for God the Father to forgive our sins without Jesus? Would that not contradict Jesus statement when he said that with God all things are possible?
USS Liberty
Lavon affair
5 dancing israelists and 140 israelists arrested from the moments of 911. AIPAC owns the US Congress.
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