In light of a recent news story regarding my Christian Day Care blog, I feel the need to clear a few things up and address the folks that responded on the news site that ran this story.
Despite my comments being taken out of context—I do not feel that all Christian Day Cares are equal to child abuse. I would never say that. It’s a complete exaggeration of my statement.
Please read more than 4 lines of text before spewing your hatred toward people that disagree with you.
My actual stance on Day Care facilities is this: They can be guilty of mentally abusing children if they focus on indoctrination into religion rather than early education, while that child is in early stages of brain development. That’s why I said “choose your child care facility carefully.”
I do stand by this statement that was quoted: “forcing [children] to learn things as fact that you don't even know to be true is a form of child abuse: inducing psychosis with thoughts of good and evil watching over them, as if they are constantly being graded and evaluated. It's bad for positive self-esteem, and slows social development later in life.”
Your religion is based on faith. They all are. Therefore, teaching your child that you ‘know’ it, or that these things are ‘facts’ is unfair to the child’s educational future. My point here is that many children of Christian families lie in bed at night fearing ‘the Devil,’ or ‘demons,’ or ‘going to Hell.’
I know this because hundreds of former Christians have admitted to me that they suffered from those fears, as did I. Are you willing to say that this level of magical fear is good for them?
Now to address some of the comments which were posted on the news site:
“I bet this bigoted jerk doesn't have the stones to write something like this about Muslim parents.” - R.D. Helm.
Well, RD, here you go: The forced indoctrination of ANY religion, including Islam, and the teaching of faith as a fact, is unfair and abusive to children. Their minds are so weak and so gullible, and taking advantage of that weakness for the advancement of one’s own agenda is abusive. When you really think about it, indoctrination isn’t fair to the religion either. After all, one is supposed to make a conscious decision to accept that belief—not be forced to ‘know’ it as a fact from 3 years old by chanting cult-like songs that praise a leader while demeaning one’s own self-esteem. On to your insult: I’m not sure where you get off that I’m a bigot. That’s what I fight against every day—the discrimination of all people, whether it be nonbelievers, gays, blacks, Muslims, or Christians. I think we all have a voice and we should all be heard. That is the opposite of a bigot. As for the jerk comment—you may be on to something there ;).
“Are the atheists free to be atheists? Ungrateful jerks should go live where their self-centered philosophy is celebrated and law-enforced.” – B.O. Stinks. (I didn’t make that name up)
This is bigotry. The United States government is in no way founded upon the Christian religion. Google that statement—it was an official announcement of our Founding Fathers. Making the statement that I should agree with you or “get out of the country” is just unpatriotic. Our freedom to disagree is what makes this a great place to live. This is a free country, not a Christian nation. I have the freedom to speak out against anything I choose, and support which ever civil rights I choose. I will stay right here and do it, as my rights as an America guarantee. If you don’t like my freedom, it is YOU that can get out of MY country.
“Mr. Smalley, you don't want religion separated from government. You want government to mirror your atheistic religion, you hypocrite.” – Hockey Kid
Your insults only make you appear childish and demeans your Christian stance. Think about the word hypocrite. WWJD? Besides, Atheism is not a religion; it is a lack of belief. It is a realization that religions do not have sufficient proof for their claims. I just want this country to be the free nation it was designed to be. Religion is separate from our government because our government does not have an established religion. That is a fact. If you want a government ran by believers of religion, please feel free to move to Iran. Perhaps ancient rules motivated by metaphysical fears are what you want to live by. That’s not the United States of America.
“David Smalley is only parroting what High Priest of Atheism, Richard Dawkins has gone on record as saying…Both Dawkins and Smalley seem to be very concerned about children's education, but only so much as it conforms to their radical atheistic agenda. “ – Stage9.
I wasn’t aware that Richard Dawkins said that. So thank you for the compliment. Richard Dawkins is a very educated, highly respected biologist and professor in the scientific community and it is an honor to be insulted right along with him. The only ‘atheistic agenda’ that exists is to keep equal rights equal—not only available to Christians. Our statements about the potential abuse of children are to warn those that read our words to be careful—not all religious teachings are good, and indoctrination is harmful for your children, and for the religion.
“One must ask the question - what exactly is it the atheists are promoting that they think is so much better?” – Slyrr
Your answer: equality.
Christians, Atheists, Muslims, and every other world view should be able to live and breathe together without ‘forcing’ one another to conform, and without forcing their children to turn out exactly like them to further their own agenda. Atheists want equality for everyone, including non-believers. That is much better than name-calling, fights, and wars in the name of your god.
In response to my quote: “In short, by starting your child off in a Christian environment, you are heading them down the path of forced ignorance”… ‘Tenebrous’ said this… “Ignorance of what exactly?” And then he/she claimed that I wanted to control all children on the planet.
To answer the question, I’m addressing ignorance of many things: the actual history of Christmas; the beginnings of the Winter Solstice; the Pagan traditions that Christians accepted; the fact that Jesus wasn’t born on December 25th: the fact of evolution: the presence of 10,000 other religions including ones that Christianity stole most of its material from; the true origins of ethics and the evolutionary biology of compassion. Instead, they are taught that all of that comes from God, and that’s that—forced ignorance. As for me wanting control of all children on the planet: no thanks—my two are a handful enough.
“Hay, Smalley, if people are smart enough to accept Christianity when they are "at the age of accountability," as you argue, shouldn't they also be smart enough to reject it even if they were exposed to Christianity as a young age?” –CobraMan
No. That’s the entire point of my post, and thank you for bringing it up. When studying child and adolescent development, we learn that things that enter our mind during the critical stages of brain development stick for good. This is how many mental disorders are started. Countless experiments have been done on children at early stages of development. It’s very hard to undo something that was learned during that phase of life, no matter how wrong it is.
That’s why even today, we have millions of adults that will stand and scream that the Bible is the word of their god, while not even knowing that the very book they are defending includes that same god condoning slavery, killing homosexuals, murdering misbehaving children, wiping out entire villages, killing innocent infants, and sacrificing helpless animals. It has been ingrained in your heads for so long that “the Bible is good” that you just accept it without questioning the content or doing your own research. You have been indoctrinated.
That’s the fear, and that’s the problem with indoctrination. Kids don’t get a chance to ‘choose,’ you make their minds up for them before they can do it for themselves. That’s what my post was warning against.
21 comments:
If you’re interested in reading my full original statement as opposed to just reading the quote-mining on the news, please visit here: http://www.dogmadebate.com/2010/06/church-day-care.html#comments
The news story with more comments can be found here: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/nathan-burchfiel/2010/06/30/american-atheist-editor-christian-daycare-child-abuse
Do you enjoy this new attention, despite its negativity, or would you prefer not to have it?
I want the attention to be on the issue. Not me. It needs to be addressed.
Mr. Smalley,
I agree that the attention needs to focus on the issue at hand. What do you suggest that we do about people sending their children to Christian-based day care? I think your readers would like to hear about what you DO stand for as opposed to what you DON'T stand for. What type of child rearing would be acceptable in your eyes as a responsible citizen? Where should moral standards be taught and where do those moral standards come from? What are YOUR standards for the moral and social upbringing of today's children? I agree with you wholeheartedly that the Bible is being misused for personal agendas, but I challenge you to study the Bible for yourself with an open heart and mind with a Christian disciple. I'm not asking you to believe what the Bible says, I'm only asking you to "know your enemy" before you condemn it further. I do appreciate your honesty regarding your concern about child-rearing, but why not propose a solution rather pointing out the flaws in raising today's youth? Opening the eyes of the public to the flaws in Christian-based day care is a big first step, but how do we offer parents an alternative with the same intention of having the security of a safe environment for their children?
There really was nothing clarified here. I read the original post, most of the comments that followed, and this 'clarification' entry...Fact remains, Mr. Smalley's very narrow scope of 'religious' teachings via daycare is just that; narrow. Not ALL religiously funded/Christian run child care facilities hold (as a fundamental belief, whether or not its taught to the children) a view of everpresent demons waiting to pounce, a God that is forever demeaning and just waiting to pounce on one's mistakes. Very few actually really believe the 'step on a crack, break your mama's back' mentality. Most focus on a loving relationship in which mistakes are made and yet a loving arm is still ready and willing to help. Twisting that into nothing more than a stupid belief is just as intolerant as believers thinking all atheists are bank robbers who sacrifice their children over pits of fire. One's opinions are generally formed from experience so I am truly sad for Mr. Smalley's experiences that led to this horribly inaccurate blanket 'Christian child care facitilies are founded on indoctrination to scare the hell out of kids' thinking. I also find it interesting that Mr. Smalley did not include the articulate comments left on his very blog following his initial entry. There was an opportunity to show a true back and forth debate but it was omitted in favor of highlighting some ignorant remarks. Mr. Smalley is no better and no worse than anybody else when it comes to assumptions, accusations, and intolerance.
I appreciate the comments. I'm glad we can have this open discussion.
Anonymous accused me of only pointing out a problem and never offering a solution, but I did say this in my original post: "Please use a lot of consideration when choosing your child care facility...Give your kids a fighting chance; let them choose their religion once they understand it from a logical perspective. Indoctrination isn't fair to anyone, including your religion."
What I DO stand for, which I've already made clear, is the rights of children to grow up and make their own decisions. That is standing for something, which Anonymous has accused me of not doing.
It's funny how you just assume that because I'm an Atheist, I've never read the Bible or studied Christianity. You said "Study the Bible for yourself,...I'm only asking you to "know your enemy" before you condemn it further."
I've spent the last 13 years examining the Bible and Christian theology from a Christian perspective. That's how it became my enemy--now I that I understand it, I have no faith. I became an Atheist from reading the Bible. Of course, you will now just say that I haven't read it good enough, or that I need a better disciple, or something else, because there's always some reason that Christians 'blame' me for not 'understanding.' But I assure you, I've taken this very seriously.
When raising a child, I suggest that you take into consideration their young, gullible minds. So many parents lie to their children about the Easter bunny, and then lie to them about Santa, and lie about the Tooth Fairy, and then you wonder why your child turns 13 and starts lying right back to you.
Children follow examples more so than rules.
Be honest with your children. Let the morals from society be understood, with your parental guidance to shape and mold your child into the young adult you know they can be. Offer your leadership, lead by example, and allow them to challenge authority respectfully. "Shut up, because I said so" is how we breed mindless sheep that are afraid to ask questions.
Julie,
I don't think you've read my posts. I'm just being honest. You've called my views narrow, yet you obviously do not understand them.
You said "Not ALL religiously funded/Christian run child care facilities hold a view of everpresent demons waiting to pounce."
I began this very post by saying "I do not feel that all Christian Day Cares are equal to child abuse. I would never say that." So what exactly was your comment for? You are quote-mining certain parts of my blog and taking them out of context, while ignoring the parts that are fair and that which you agree with. Yet again, you've called MY views narrow, and that is unfair.
I never said that all day cares tell kids that demons are waiting to pounce. Yet another innacurate statement that I shouldn't have to defend. I didn't speak these words--you couldn't have misunderstood them. They are written down--you've just chosen to scan, and judge rather than understand.
Here's what I actually said: "...child abuse: inducing psychosis with thoughts of good and evil watching over them, as if they are constantly being graded and evaluated. It's bad for positive self-esteem, and slows social development later in life.”
In yet another inaccurate move to make me look spineless, you've accused me of intentionally avoiding articulate comments.
Did you mention all the insulting comments I also passed over? The reality is that there are nearly 100 comments on that news site, and 33 comments on my site. I couldn't possibly address everyone.But to make me appear in a bad light to my readers, you point out your assumption that I'm avoiding someone out of fear for having a decent conversation. You're just trying to attack me--instead of dealing with the issue.
I would much rather have an articulate debate from someone who ACTUALLY READS what I've written, than a fight over semantics and words taken out of context.
It's also interesting that I registered for an account to respond on that news site, and my account was not approved.
I am just sitting--unable to defend myself as Christians throw the nastiest insults they can at me without knowing the first thing about me, or researching a single thing about what Atheism actually means, or if my comments are warranted from a child and adolescent brain development perspective.
You said yourself many times atheism doesn't actually mean anything.
There are no moral rules to follow, no doctrine or code to live by. Atheism doesn't mean anything.
Atheism is something different for every individual who calls themselves such. Atheism in and of itself is an empty word. It is simply the absence of belief.
Because they claim no set of standard to live by you can't judge them one way or the other until they prove what kind of person they are.
Its much easier for people to judge others when they do claim a set of standards to live by.
As for Smalley knowing anything about christianity... well he knows alot of technical stuff. Hes read the manual.
But does he really know what it means to be christian... I don't think so.
A good analogy would be the doctors office. We all agree the doctor is good, and the doctor helps you. But sometimes we go to the doctor and its not good, we get shots or feel pain at the doctor.
What Smalley does is like simply saying "I hate the doctor, the doctor hurts me, so the doctor is bad"! He picks out the bad parts and emphasizes them as if they are the only thing that happens at the doctor.
What Smalley has missed are the antibiotics, the medicine, the advice, the help recieved at the doctor. True Christians try to focus on the help not the hurt.
Focusing on the hurt only hurts the person focusing on it.
This is why Smalleys message does not get across to anyone, especially christians. When Smalley says kids are being abused by going to christian daycare, they know its not true, so no point is made to them. Smalley did not even bring forward one medical doctor, or even one child psychologists opinion to state such a thing. In fact a simple google search would show many psychologists stating that religion is good for kids. This is not an issue that needs to be addressed, its simply Smalleys very biased opinion.
When he exagerates things like stoning kids, or massacring small towns, it doesn't come through because no one lives that way. No one uses their christianity in that way in this country. People use it to help guide their decisions when confused, to gain strength for tough situations, etc... it helps way more people than it hurts.
Smalley may be one of those that it has hurt, but it doesn't take away from the fact the multitudes of people that it helps everyday.
I was raised a christian, and went to christian schools, but I am not a christian now. I don't have the same resentment that Smalley holds for it though. I was a happy, smart, well adjusted child. I had no fear of hell, or the devil, or demons because I was a christian. I felt Gods love and protection around me and used my christian values for good things. I questioned things though as Smalley did, and went on a spiritual quest for truth so to speak. I found something quite different than Smalley did.
The brush you(David) paint christians with is not accurate, and that is why you get the reaction that you do. You are challenged because you don't tell the truth about what being christian really means. You point out the warts, but ignore the beauty underneath.
Excellent post, Pete! You've brought up some really good points.
I too, was raised Christian. In fact, into my twenties, although I didn't quite believe anymore, I was playing drums for local churches because of the group feelings I had toward the congregations, and the hope I had that 'God' did exist.
Your analogy about the doctor is very powerful, and close, but not quite accurate.
It's a better comparison to say that people go to this doctor's office, and leave feeling better, but they've never actually seen the doctor--they just have faith that he's back there. In addition, the patients make the claim that the doctor is perfect and can do no wrong.
Then as a skeptic, I come along and say "sometimes the doctor IS wrong, and sometimes the wrong procedure IS performed, and sometimes he hurts you...are you sure there's really a doctor back there? Because that really doesn't fit your description of what you think that doctor is."
Moreover, there are many other ways people could be getting better. There could be nurses, physicians assistants, a pharmacist, or many other things that appear to be a doctor that really aren't: just as one's psychology, conscience, therapeutic cognitive behavior, evolutionary biology, sociological norms, etc. appear to be the Christian god to those that believe in him yet do not understand those things. Once we understand them, we see the possibility of the Christian god existing diminish.
This is why most of the scientists that understand our natural world and evolution, and most of the psychologists and sociologists that understand our behavior, do not believe.
It's much like the young boy being afraid of that noise in the dark, while his father isn't because he knows exactly what the water heater sounds like.
Once we have an understanding of the world around us, we realize that religions are simply illusions for real life, and we no longer need them.
As a young Christian, I visited several camps and youth group sessions. In fact, I typically played the drums for such gatherings.
There were some fun times, there was camaraderie, there was a sense of belonging--but that is also available in society through group psychology.
We can experience the same things on a secular football team, or camping with friends. The Christian foundation behind the trip did not create those things. The fact of like-minded people being together did.
However, the negative portions of the camps there were absolutely brought forth by Christianity. Youth Ministers would sit us around a camp fire and tell us about how we needed to confess our sins before man so that we may enter the kingdom of heaven.
He told us, as a group of 13-17 year-old kids, that our impure thoughts of lust were from the devil tempting us and that we should admit it in front of the group and repent. If we didn't of course, we were going to hell, never to see our dead loved ones again.
Children were crying uncontrollably with their faces in their hands, everyone was fearing going to hell, and felt tainted by the devil, as if he were inside us controlling our feelings. Some of the kids' parents had died, and that ignited even more anxiety among those that wanted to see them again.
And for what? For doing exactly what comes natural to us as adolescent humans looking to find a mate as a result of biology.
So I spoke up as the children were crying. At 15 years old, and still a believer in Christ, I challenged the youth minister that seemed to just want to know our secret fantasies.
I said "But God gave us these instincts. God gave us the ability to be attracted. God made me attracted to women. Why would he punish me for using what he gave me to know when I'm attracted to someone?"
He had no good answer--only that "God wouldn't put those thoughts into my head, so it must have been Satan."
I wasn't buying it. He didn't scare me, and that was evident to the group. So after the fear session, a lot of the kids came up to me and we talked openly about it.
While I still believed in "God," the best I could tell them was, "stop feeling so bad about something that comes natural to you. No GOOD god would give you something and then punish you for using it."
Around that camp fire, we were all mentally abused by Christianity and bullied by a self-proclaimed "man of God."
And that's just one example of one hour that I was a Christian. There are thousands.
Mr. Smalley, I assure you I did read your blogs and comments for quite some time. I do not 'scan read' as you assume, I was quite thorough. Some of my statements were not intended to be direct quotes, rather paraphrases of your statements to show how they are coming across to others. Your words: "Here's what I actually said "...child abuse: inducing psychosis with thoughts of good and evil watching over them, as if they are constantly being graded and evaluated. It's bad for positive self-esteem and slows social development later in life."" We all know this is your opinion and what many people have commented on is how faulty they believe that opinion to be. We're all full of beliefs/opinions and I'm glad you share yours, I'm not trying to shut you up. Like many others here, everyone expressing and having a back and forth is good. Many have pointed out the biased assumptions behind such a comment in an effort (perhaps) to help you see that you are actually doing what you dread seeing from others, just from a different perspective. You think it's unfair, not right, child abuse even, for a Christian to pass on a belief in God because, after all, you state one should not pass on as fact what is not absolutely known to be truth. Are atheists the only ones who know for sure whether or not there is a God? Atheist believe there is not, Christians believe there is, it's perfectly natural to pass along your belief system to your children, whatever that belief is. Atheists do not know with any more certainty that God does NOT exist than Christians know He does exists, they are both beliefs. So again, your words: "But forcing them to learn things as fact that you don't even know to be true is a form of child abuse: inducing psychosis with thoughts of good and evil watching over them, as if they are constantly being graded and evaluated. It's bad for positive self-esteem, and slows social development later in life." Atheists can also pass along a belief, one that states there is no responsiblity to anything higher than themselves. If that's how one wants to live, there is freedom to do so. If one believes in a loving God and believes its important to have a relationship with Him (even without, believe it or not, the creepy 'gotta be good enough or He'll zap me, the demons will get me, I'm being graded' mentality), one has the freedom to do so. And one would take offense to that being referred to as child abuse. Just as I believe an atheist would take offense to being thought of as no better than a murdering, bank robbing, child killer.
David,
What denomination were you raised?
Because most christians do not believe works or confessing of sins will get you to heaven.
Thats why they can sin and get away with it...lol. God forgives.
Salvation or baptism depending on the denomination is what keeps you out of hell. So that story of your camp experiences sound odd to me, as I went to them too. There was no threat of hell if we did not confess our sins. There was however big bonfires that we burned up all of our rock music. Being the good christian that I was... I didn't have any to begin with...lol.
Unless you were raised catholic.
Julie,
I've enjoyed your posts. We're really getting somewhere.
You've made an excellent point, with one major adjustment.
Atheists do not "believe there is no god." Atheism is not a faith opposite of Christianity, projecting to know the truth.
Atheism simply claims that all religions and beliefs are without sufficient proof. We are aside from religious belief, not in opposition to it.
The actual word Atheism means can be broken down as follows: theism is a belief in a god that interacts with its creation and creatures; a-theism is lifestyle without that assumption.
The Atheist has not made a claim that requires proof. The Atheist has simply challenged the believer that their claims of proof are premature and do not warrant the faith they have.
Although my children are technically without the belief in a deity, I won't even let the identify themselves as Atheist just yet.
They are 10 and 6. I gave them a book titled "Bible Stories for Children" and answer their questions when they have them. Sometimes they listen to my speeches, but most of the time they say I'm boring!
I don't push Atheism on my children. In fact, there is nothing to push. There are no threats, there are no beliefs, there are no assumptions.
When they ask me how the earth got here, I first ask their opinion or their guess of the answer. And then I say, "Well, the best we know is..." I mention the singularity, the big bang, etc, and end that by saying, "But we could be wrong--so physicists are still looking into it."
That's the beauty of raising children on science and allowing them to ask questions. We can admit that sometimes science has to be revised and updated.
Theology doesn't work that way. You either believe it as is, or suffer the consequences of social ostracizing, violation of civil liberties, and the legal inability to run for public office in 7 states.
If I'm instilling anything in my children, it's for them to approach issues with logic and an open mind.
"Then as a skeptic, I come along and say "sometimes the doctor IS wrong, and sometimes the wrong procedure IS performed, and sometimes he hurts you...are you sure there's really a doctor back there? Because that really doesn't fit your description of what you think that doctor is."
Then a believer would respond..."I'm sorry you had that experience. But that doctor saved my life, that doctor brought me back from the brink of death, that doctor saved my family, that doctor gave me a purpose, I don't care that I didn't see his face, my life is so much better now etc..."
That person is going to believe their own experiences over your skepticism. Perception is reality. They are not going to stop seeing that doctor because one tsp of medicine tasted bitter, Especially when the medicine made them feel well and whole.
No matter the country, jungle or village all over the world, every single large population or small tribe of people create something resembling a God. We know its there, we feel it, we experience it, but our physical minds can't comprehend it, so we all as human beings create something to try and explain that part of ourselves.
Even you are obsessed with the subject of God.
Pete,
I wasn't raised in a particular denomination. I started going to a Baptist church with a friend around the age of 14 and was baptized at 16.
I attended an Episcopalian church with some of my family members--but always ended up back at the Baptist church where it all started.
The camps I went to were Baptist.
You're right about the "God forgives" comment. And that inconsistency of judging me for not believing, and then turning around and getting drunk, smoking cigarettes, cursing, cheating on their spouses, not going to church, lying, not paying certain bills they owe, etc., is the ultimate hypocrisy that drives me crazy within Christianity.
Only 'God' can judge Christians, but Christians are endowed to judge the world.
Pete,
That which we 'feel' is not god. It is the evolutionary and biological instinct to be drawn to something greater than ourselves for protection and guidance.
We see it in the wild the moment a young deer is born. It instinctively knows who Mommy is and stays close for protection.
Humans can't mentally deal with the fact we are it--the end--the ultimate authority, all alone in this world adn responsible for our own protection.
We haven't evolved passed that point: then enters religion and the creation of gods.
I'm interested in psychology, sociology, human behavior, cognitive behavioral therapy, and evolutionary biology: so yes, religion and gods are a hot topic. especially when one particular religion claims to have so much proof, that they should be given the rights to run our government using their holy document full of contradictions.
I was raised Baptist as well, and we were not taught that. So I dont't really understand your story as it doesn't seem in line with Baptist beliefs. But then again your personal perception of what happened back then was your reality. Others may have had a different perception.
"Humans can't mentally deal with the fact we are it--the end--the ultimate authority, all alone in this world adn responsible for our own protection"
I don't see why they couldn't deal with that. I think we could.
But that is just your perception of reality. Doesn't mean it is the truth.
You're right. My words do not guarantee the truth.
But it's a lot more reasonable explanation than "A magic god did it."
Oh,I forgot to mention this; you also said, Mr. Smalley, that you tried to register for an account to respond to the story. I assume you mean at Newsbusters. It takes a while, sometimes about a week or more, to have an account approved with NB so don't take it personally or read anything into it. If it was flat out rejected, that's one thing, but to have no response for quite some time is normal.
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