Dear Mr Smalley,
Hi, my name is Shannon and I'm a year 12 student in Sydney, Australia. One of the courses I am doing for my HSC (our version of SATs) is English Ext 2 wherein I will create a major work on basically anything that I want. A great deal of research is required to back up my work and I was hoping that I could use some correspondence with you in order to help shape the ideas behind my piece. I am writing a play designed to try and make people examine and question their personal beliefs in religion or non-religion, more specifically in Christianity as that is the most prominent religion in my life. I am not trying to convert people to any form of thinking but rather attempting to stop blind belief or disbelief.
Personally I was raised in a fairly strict catholic family and up until I year 7 I was a devout believer in Jesus and Christianity to the point of being a mini-bible basher. When I began year 7, which is the start of High School here, and changed schools I was exposed to several 'intellectual atheists', the sort of people I had never been allowed to be exposed to before. When they questioned me about my faith I realised that I actually had no grounds for it other than my upbringing and from there I became an atheist. Since then I have changed to an anglican school and been surrounded by religion basically all the time. I do not dislike this as it has meant I have spent countless hours having discussions with my christian friends most of which are really interesting, passionate and make me feel good because I am actually exploring my own and their own beliefs, much like the discussions on your site. Whilst I am open with my beliefs at school I am what you would call a 'closet atheist' at home, purely due to the strife that it would cause my family.
If you could spare the time to discuss and answer some of my questions, mostly on your belief as to why people still believe in religion, still form new religions and face their religions' faults it would be enormously appreciated. I find the opinions you display on your site to be very insightful into these aspects of religion and that you would be a great person to discuss my ideas with. However if you are too busy or are unable I will understand.
Thank You,
Shannon
Shannon,
ReplyDeleteThank you for contacting me. I would be happy to open a dialogue with you on religion. I could talk about it for hours.
Forgive my candor, but I'd like to start by urging you not to refer to atheism as a 'belief.' When we do this, it relegates atheism to a religion, and then we appear as faithful and presumptuous as believers. Atheists do not 'believe' there is no god, but rather, have realized that all religions are without sufficient proof, and require more evidence than just faith and passed-down stories. By default, science must assume a negative until a positive can be proven. Therefore, the default answer to the golden question is "there is no god until otherwise proven." Atheists do not suggest all knowledge of the universe, but simply a scientific, logical approach that we take with anything.
Belief is what lies between what we know to be true and what we hope to be true. Atheists do not hope for a metaphysical or otherwise unprovable outcome. We analyze what's here, and make a decision to roll with it, or reject it. More than likely, if it's based on spirits, gods, angels, demons, monsters, fairies, or ghosts, we reject it. Atheism is not a belief or religion—it's a realization.
Have you had a chance to pick up my book, Baptized Atheist? It's available on Amazon.com and would be a great reference for some of the things we will be talking about. I've chronicled my personal story of investigating, debating, and dealing with family members as I came out of the 'other closet.' I think you'd find it useful.
So why is religion so common?
There is a critical point in toddler brain development between ages 2-5 in which information that makes its way in, will most likely stick forever. When religionists use this time period to hammer in the 'talking points' of their beliefs, it becomes very real for young people. This is the process of indoctrination. It's the reason why most people think that 'God' wrote the bible, and that Adam and Eve ate an 'apple.' They think that 'Christian' means 'good,' the bible is the 'good book,' with a lesson plan for life, and that Jesus came to bring 'peace,' despite him saying just the opposite in Matthew 10:34. These types of common misconceptions are due to people being indoctrinated rather than educating themselves.
When we look into group-psychology, a term coined by Freud, we see that when people join groups, they replace their own attributes with those of the group. This means their ego, interests, dreams, hopes, desires, etc. become those of the group, and the individuals' interests take a back seat. So when you approach an indoctrinated 28-year-old and ask her to remove herself from her religion, you are essentially asking her to remove a piece of herself (as Dr. David Eller was cited in my book as saying), for her and the group are one.
Religion is also very powerful because the world is scary. All mammals have a biological instinct to stay close the bigger, more powerful version of itself for safety, guidance, and comfort. Watch newborn deer, gorillas, lions, etc. as they cling to their mother. So what is there for humans? The natural desire to reach for something more powerful—even if we have to create it.
Shannon's First Response:
ReplyDeleteMr Smalley
I was very excited to receive your response, sorry for the delay replying, truth be told I was not really expecting a response. I have no problem with having this discussion on your website, my main purpose in my major work is to encourage people to think about their beliefs and putting this on the public stage would actually get that to occur, which would be brilliant.
As for your response, whilst I agree that atheism is not a 'belief' in the way that Christianity or Islam is, it remains a perspective on the nature and reason of existence. As there is no more proof for the non-existence of a god or supernatural entity than there is for the existence of one (other than the evidence created by the lack of proof) I personally term it as a belief in order to be polite to the theists out there. I despise it when theists live in absolute denial that their belief could be false and term it as fact rather than belief and so I pay those who do accept that their faith may be wrong the same courtesy. However, perhaps for the sake of ease it would be easier for me to refrain from terming it as one.
It is true that had the human psyche a scientific base everyone would join you in your answer to the golden question, however we do not have that basis. We are emotional beings, many of us even deny that science is even possible in emotion, that love and the like is in our soul and works like magic. What makes atheists able to deny this feeling? To become logical beings amid the chaos that we live in and to remove ourselves from the bliss of ignorance to wait for proof?
Just last night I had a discussion with my (very drunk) best friend who truly believes that all his non-christian friends are going to go to hell because that is God's purpose for us, no matter how good we are, he even commented that Gandhi would be there too. My friend cannot stop himself from believing this as he cannot stop being a christian. I cannot understand how he can believe that his God would send all non-Christians to hell after making them that way to begin with. He loves all his friends and he thinks that it's wrong, yet he still believes it. He became a christian 5 years ago.
I have been through indoctrination, ever since I could speak I was made to recite prayers every morning and I still go to church every weekend. I was taught catechism and went through all the sacraments I could as a child, my life at home and at school was all about God. I have also been part of the 'group.' As a child my faith was unwavering and I even considered becoming a nun (remember I would have been about 8 at this point). However my point with all this is, what makes my friend different to me? We both spend hours questioning the world and attempting to philosophies, we both love humanity and we both fear death. But our beliefs have changed entirely since we became old enough to begin to think for ourselves.
Your points on why people believe are all valid, however they are not universal, sometimes it seems to me that people feel a need for a reason. Without it, this all means nothing. This world is a scary place. I want to ask your opinion on agnostics and deists, do you believe that they, who believe without religion, have a better chance of happiness in life than atheists? For atheist brutally face that death will be a cold end. Agnostics and deists have hope that their god or the world will make everything right without the need to subscribe to a religion and see their chosen religion's flaws.
Shannon,
ReplyDeleteAtheism may be called a viewpoint, a perspective, or a worldview, but not a belief.
The position can become a confusing one, in stating that "there is no more proof of 'no god' than there is for one existing." But I disagree.
That is akin to me saying "you have no more proof that I don't have an invisible pocket monkey, therefore our claims should be equally taken seriously."
The burden of proof lies on the person making the assertion of the knowledge. Science assumes a negative until a positive is proven. So, Atheism isn't so much saying "I know there is no god," as it is asserting "no proof of any god has been validated." It's logical scientific reasoning, but not a belief.
I'll address your other concerns in my next post...
However, if we, atheists, take a step back and look at the grand view of things, to christians, atheism is a belief that there are no gods. Their belief is fact (to them.) Contradicting myself, it's the opposite of a belief, as atheism is to theism. Atheism is based on fact.
ReplyDeleteSo to you theists and atheists difference in belief is placed on their differing values. Theists values come from their 'indoctrination' and the group-psychology that they were raised in or converted to. Atheists however, have had a "realisation" that without proof they cannot assert the certainty of a God.
ReplyDeleteAll that I agree with, however I wonder at your standpoint on the reason for the changes in peoples beliefs, many fierce believers and non-believers convert. Those who 'find faith' or 'lose it' show how these are not necessarily lifelong. Specifically why do you think religious people become atheists, or non-theists become religion? Or people change from one religion to another?
Shannon,
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure I agree with the way you chose to phrase your summary of atheism. It sounds as if you're asserting that we've had some sort of "divine revelation", rather than simply looking at the facts and arriving at a conclusion.
Atheists are not people who "believe there are no gods." Atheists are people who lack a belief in any kind of supernatural entity. As David so elegantly put it, the default answer is always a negative, until a positive can be proved. We are not so much asserting that there is no god so much as we're asserting that the evidence for the existence of a god/supernatural entity is, to say the very least, quite underwhelming.
I think that people change what they believe because they realize that whatever they had before be it a religion or lack of one isn't sufficient for them. I have had several arguments with people and it is just where your faith lies. Also the reason for that faith. I had little faith in god as a kid but it only got weaker as I got older. For me I realized that what I believed in was not logical.
ReplyDeleteI have a question. If Atheism "isn't so much saying 'I know there is no god,' as it is asserting 'no proof of any god has been validated.'" What is an agnostic?
ReplyDeleteTwelve,
ReplyDeleteThat's an excellent question. In my book, "Baptized Atheist," I address that very same point.
When early followers of Jesus first approached the Ancient Greeks who believed in multiple gods, they of course rejected those gods, and claimed that Jesus was the one true 'God.' The Greeks were astonished by this, and since their Greek word 'Theos' meant 'the gods,' they referred to the early Christians as 'Atheos,' meaning 'without gods.'
So technically, Christians are 'atheistic' toward all gods except their own. And Muslims are 'atheistic' toward all gods but 'Allah,' and so on.
Therefore, the point I make in my book is that agnostics are atheists. It's very simple. Anyone who lives without the assumption that a god exists, is atheistic. It just makes some people feel better by saying they are 'agnostic' in this strongly-slanted Christian society. I suppose they feel like 'undecided' is better than 'no god exists,' but in reality, it's all the same.
So the atheist does say "no god exists?" Atheism IS a knowledge claim?
ReplyDeleteNo, an atheist says "I don't believe a god exists." It's not a knowledge claim. it's a statement of a worldview.
ReplyDeleteDo you believe in leprechauns? Probably not. But you're not saying "I have all knowledge of the universe" simply by denying your belief in something. You're not claiming to know all, you're proclaiming that you don't hold a belief that others may.
You're right, I do not believe in leprechauns due to the fact that there is no good reason to do so, the same reason, I assume, you don't believe in god. But comparing belief to god with leprechauns is like comparing apples to oranges.
ReplyDeleteMr. Smalley said, "Anyone who lives without the assumption that a god exists, is atheistic. It just makes some people feel better by saying they are 'agnostic' in this strongly-slanted Christian society. I suppose they feel like 'undecided' is better than 'no god exists,' but in reality, it's all the same." But then you said "No" to the questions of "So the atheist does say 'no god exists?'" And also, "Atheism IS a knowledge claim?"
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, but it seemed that in the first statement you were implying that the agnostic is "undecided" whereas the atheist says, "no god exists." Well, "no god exists" IS a knowledge claim.
So, do you say "no god exists?" Or rather "I'm undecided on whether or not god exists?" I'm confused on where exactly you stand.